March 17, 2006 3:34 PM
Is college for everyone?
I had mentioned on the Q&A about grandparents that my oldest daughters chose not to pursue college - the first after a year of it and the second in her senior year of high school.
In her comment, Jill said:
Also, I don't know how to ask this without sounding critical, so I'll just toss it out there as food for thought. As Barbara says, it's perfectly wonderful for children of any gender to choose not to go to college. However, a Christian woman can go to college, get valuable skills, and then put those skills to use in raising her children, educating her children at home, or helping the family. For example, I use the skills/degree I have to work from home in a field that is flexible, pays well, and only requires 10 hours of my time per week, which I fit in around sleepy times for the kids. If I hadn't gone to college and grad school (before I had kids), there is no way I could do this. It really helps the family and, I'll admit it, helps my brain to be able to do something adult and challenging for even just 30 minutes a day. Barbara puts her Montessori training to wonderful use in writing books and educating her children (and other moms!). I just love Small Beginnings for that. It sure hasn't taken away from her Christian-ness or her mom-ness.Young children cannot know yet if they want to go to college or not. Perhaps, maybe, would it be more prudent to educate them at home with all the required classes and subjects for college entrance, while realizing they may not choose to go? Education is never ever wasted.
Jill is right - though I don't know how she knew how I felt about college. I don't remember writing about it here, but I will now :)
I am a strong advocate of not predetermining your child's future but being open to God's plan. Trust me, it will reveal itself! Not everyone needs to go to college. And people can be very successful and educated (self-educated) without putting themselves through four years of having their lives on hold.
I'm probably older than most of my readers - old enough to be your mother (though I'm unusual in still have 6 kids at home 5-16) - but back when I went to high school (hear the old granny tone?), a smaller percentage of people went to college - usually people with career goals that involved needing to go to college.
But things changed and it became more the norm to go to college. What's weird is that I think in many ways when kids graduated from high school in the sixties, they knew much more than today's high school graduates. In some ways it seems like they've just stretched out the school experience another 2- 4 years to accomplish only a little more than what was once accomplished by 12th grade. In similar fashion, a century ago in the United States, people used to graduate from 8th grade fully prepared to own and run a home and business - as witness the Eighth Grade Final Examination from Salinas County, Kansas.
Until 1942 there really was no such thing as a teenager. If that's a new idea for you, spend some time visiting The Creation of a Teenager. I'm not sure how or why it happened - my guess is that it had something to do with consumerism and the education bureaucracy - but we basically lengthened the time before people were recognized as adults and became productive and responsible members of society.
I think the situation is deplorable today - with kids dependent on their parents and yet allowed to behave irresponsibly at college, simply postponing growing up. Yes, I know there are some people who need degrees for their professions, but what percentage of students do you think are simply putting in time? A huge waste of time and money.
And yet, some parents determine from the get go that they want their kids to go to college. How open to the Holy Spirit is that?
I always felt that children were like gifts from the Lord and as you open them, you allow God to reveal his plans for each one individually, not as a collective. My self-worth is not tied up in whether my kids all go to college. My husband Tripp didn't go to college, yet he started an award-winning business and ran it for almost 20 years in California - 25 employees and a lot of good work in their lives. I got my degree and went to the Montessori Institute long before I met him and long before we became Christians. I had no idea how God would use that in my life. But Tripp is the most intellectually stimulating man I know and he is my best friend when it comes to discussing books. politics, ideas. He knows much more about history and the Bible than I ever will. He is a self-educated man.
As for the generation we're raising: There are the two older girls, each homeschooling five kids. Though Samantha only went to one year of college and Jasmine turned it down flat, Sophia (16) clearly wants to go to college - probably Liberty U. like her brothers. No way would I send my daughter to a state university with no protection for girls. Maddy (12) wants to study musical Theater - we'll see how we can do that when the time comes -there is a conservatory near us.
Among my boys, Josh (22) went to college one year before deciding he'd rather do physical work. He started his own construction company with his brother-in-law and saved up enough to buy a fixer-upper house to secure a future for his family (getting married May 20).
Matt (21) passed his California Proficiency Exam (a little classier than the GED) but does not seem interested in college. He is out on his own doing what he loves - acting.
Ben and Zach are in college now - Ben pursuing a BFA in voice, will probably become a performer or teacher. Zach is studying math and physics and hoping to get into a service academy to become an astronaut.
Imagine if I had forced everyone to go to college! Imagine how I might have thwarted what God had in mind for them!
What I really think was kind of summed up in a line from an old movie called Sorry, Wrong Number:
If a man hasn't got a talent for making money, college won't knock it into him. And if a man has a talent for making money, he won't need college.
Of course, it's not about making money. But I think in terms of our goals for our children, it's better to think in terms of character development and raising a generation of good mothers and fathers rather than college being the end-all, be-all.
There is also this unrealistic situation: Christian kids who are committed to maintaining their purity are expected to conform to the culture and wait until later to marry. Why?
With all that said, I do think we should try to educate our children in such a way that their options will be open and they will be able to go to college if they desire it. That's just the right thing to do. But we should accept that some - especially those who are creative - are just not academically inclined. Ben's high school grades and lack of interest or talent in math and science led him to pursue a BFA (Bachelor of Fine Arts). That's fine with me.
Above all, I think we should also be educating our children to love learning so much that even if college isn't in the picture for some of them, they will continue growing and learning and expanding their understanding of the wonderful world we live in. That is one of the wonderful things about the Montessori approach, because it catches the child's sensitive periods to learning and makes the first learning experiences full of joy. That joy can go on throughout life. It isn't limited to a building or a schedule or a piece of paper. It's all around us all the time!
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Comments
Excellent and thought provoking post. Teaching children how to learn and instilling them with a joy of learning is something all of us parents should focus on, not just a 'product' of college education. If we do this our children will be prepared (far better than most of their peers) for whatever educational path God has for them.
It would be wonderful to be able to spend a few hours a week earning supplemental income because of the knowledge and status that a degree would lend me, but there are many more ways to work that don't require the same initial time and money investment as college. For example I can and, Lord willing, soon will give piano lessons based on the skills I developed privately and at relatively little expense. My 'degree' is in my fingers. There are countless ways for any mother to bring in some extra income no matter what her resume may have. It is a question of our own talents and creativity and, as Mrs. Barbara says, character.
I find your comment on requiring our young people to stay single longer intriguing, Mrs. Barbara. I've done some thinking along those lines over the years (especially as a virgin in waiting) and would love to hear more of your thoughts. I still remember longing to have my own home, husband and babies and being told, 'it's way too early, don't worry about it.' Ha!
Posted by: Cheri | March 17, 2006 5:33 PM
My husband never attended college and he is making a very good living doing something he enjoys. I did attend college to be a teacher and would never make the amount of money that my husband makes, without a degree.
Follow your heart and the Lord's leading...this is the prayer I have for my children as well.
Posted by: Lindsey | March 17, 2006 6:23 PM
Yes, you did write about it...in "Lord, Please Meet Me in the Laundry Room".
There, now everyone go buy that book and read it! :)
Posted by: Jill | March 17, 2006 6:27 PM
i really enjoyed this post -- as someone who has only ever seen this generation, it was interesting to note other perspectives and reasons some people choose not to attend college.
while i agree totally with your quote saying 'If a man hasn't got a talent for making money, college won't knock it into him. And if a man has a talent for making money, he won't need college.', i ALSO feel like today, it is becoming increasingly common to have a bachelor's degree, so much so that it's almost necessary to get a start in business. i know there are exceptions, but whether the actual learning you do in college applies to your field or not, it still seems that most people aren't looking to hire those who haven't graduated from college. there isn't as much of an opportunity for those business-minded people (who didn't graduate from college) to prove themselves UNLESS they start their own business.
just my thoughts - hopefully they did not offend; i always believe that it's best to follow the plan you believe God has for you.
Posted by: Emily | March 17, 2006 7:30 PM
I'm glad you got a little more into your previous post. There was something that didn't seem right and I was not sure how to put words to my feelings. sometimes I get irritated with people thinking their way is the best way to do things. I have gotten a lot of that with my boys in public schools. It is where we feel God has led us for the moment. That does not mean we won't change later but for now, they are in the right place. The previous post sounded like girls should not go to college. I get that a lot too, why did I get a degree just to stay home with my children. I am sure I will hear more when all the boys are in school and I am still a mom and homemaker but sometimes I wish people would look past what they think to get a feel of the other way to do things. I have learned a lot that way.
BUT I will say, I am glad I went to college. Just as glad as my occupation of a stay at home mom now. Thanks for writing about this again. I feel better about it now.
Not sure what this post sounds like but I am going to send it anyway hopefully I will not make anyone angry. I don't mean to do any of that!!
Posted by: janet | March 17, 2006 7:46 PM
Thanks for writing this! I went to college for 2-1/2 years and spent a lot of my parents' money and went into debt myself while trying to figure out what degree I wanted and why I wanted it . . . when in reality I knew I didn't plan to have a job outside the home after the children came along anyway. The time wasn't wasted, but it might have been better spent (especially with the monetary considerations factored in).
Posted by: Jodi | March 17, 2006 7:50 PM
Barbara, Barbara, Barbara...This is EXACTLY how I feel...from college and God-given individuality right down to the part about expecting young people to remain chaste but not marry early...what a great post!!!!
Posted by: Holly | March 17, 2006 9:22 PM
I really appreciate what you have said here. My husband, who is extremely intelligent and a pastor did not finish college or go to seminary. I know many people who "look down their noses" at that fact. But when you meet him and get to know his passion for the local church, you can see God gave him everything he needed to accomplish what God would have him to.
Personally, I finished college; went into teaching--which I didn't have a degree for and loved-- and am now at home planning to homeschool my girls. I do hope they go to college, but realize, if they are like their dad, it won't happen. I'm totally ok with it. Besides, if they don't go to college, then we plan to go to Europe on the money we're saving!=)
Posted by: robin | March 17, 2006 9:22 PM
I love your entry here. It's so true and so important.
I know many parents who feel that college is the be all end all to their childrens lives, whereas my husband and I tend to think "IF" they choose to go to college they will be prepared, and we will support them as best as we can, but we will also help them think about what they want to do, because frankly, if it can be done at a Tech school it's quicker, cheaper, and more thorough than taking Public Speaking 101 just for the "Credit". Obviously we don't see college as the answer to a good life.
Posted by: Sheri | March 18, 2006 8:39 AM
Hi Barbara
Wow. Excellent post. I am going to print it out and go over the points with my husband, for all the points you made I truly agree with. I could not have written or said it more fully.
While I went to a four year college and got married a year or so after graduation, my husband started his work (apprenticing, I guess you could say) at 18 and worked his way up to where he is today.(he is 36 now) He has the most common sense of anyone I know. *smiles*
I myself was married at 23. I know that is not young by some standards, but young in today's culture. I think it was the greatest thing in the world for many reasons. I love your statement on purity regarding this.My hubby and I were engaged for 2 months. I'm all for short engagements!
One thing I was curious about:
What did you mean about state universities not protecting our daughters? I think I MAY know what you mean, but I wanted you to clarify that.
Posted by: birchmama | March 18, 2006 9:02 AM
Here are our personal experiances.
My husband graudated in the late sixties. He never attended college. He makes a good living at his job working for the U S Post Ofice.Most of the time he has been there he has hated it. He is now eligible to retire but not ready to retire from working.If he had some college he feels more doors would be open to him to make some kind of career change.
I went back to work after my youngest was in middle school.Until I went back to night school and earned my BS I was not able to earn much above minimum wage.I now am able to work in a community based social service setting for much better pay.
My daughter went to college for five years to get a degree in education and then decided she hated the way public schools function and that she could not be a teacher in todays school.
So she is back in school getting a two year degree in Physical Therapy Assistant and will earn more than she ever could have as a teacher, not to mention she loves it so far.
My oldest son tried school one yearfor graphic design(he is an extremly talented musician and artist) and hated it. Dropped out. Got Married. Tried construction, Post Office, Police Force and finaly ended up in a local funeral home. He loved that. He and his wife have one child and he is now two of three years into earning a degree in mortuary science so as to be eligible for state license and not have to work at apprentice level wages all his life.
Youngest son still at home at 21..tried one year of college, hated it. Has thought about journalism and teaching..works full time at a local business and still trying to figure out what is next.
My conclusion...for most of us it takes some school to be able to reach our goals and earn a decent living.At least in Kansas.
I think what is important is to not go after a four year degree until we get a chance to work some and figure out what we want.OH, our kids all grew up in a mix of homeschooling, private Christian schooling and public school. My daughter in law was home schooled and then attended local Christian school and then went to beauty school and is a hairdresser.My son in law always attended public school and is in law school now and my youngest son's girlfriend was completly homschooled. So a real mixture there too.
Posted by: Mary | March 18, 2006 9:14 AM
Great post! I really enjoyed reading it.
Thanks,
Posted by: Terry Storch | March 18, 2006 10:20 AM
Great post! Thanks for sharing.
Posted by: Daniel martin | March 18, 2006 11:54 AM
Just to clarify: my thoughts on college are based on the fact that today's students are taking longer to learn less and remaining dependent on parents (while allowed to be pretty irresponsible) for longer periods of time.
Yes, college does help some people enter the work force earning more money. But that doesn't address whether they really needed college to be there. I think college degrees are required where they are not really necessary. And I think employers might find better, more enthusiastic employees if they opened doors once reserved for college graduates to young people who want to work and get on with their lives.
Students used to learn how to write formal business letters and handle correspondence WELL in high school on funky old typewriters that didn't have erase buttons. There's no excuse for students graduating today without that kind of practical knowledge.
And of course, anyone with an entrepreneurial streak can build a business and provide work for others without a single college course.
Posted by: barbaracurtis | March 18, 2006 12:45 PM
Barbara: this post was a word in season for me! What a reminder to me that life comes down to seeking God & trusting Him in what He is calling us individually to and teaching our children to do the same. Whether it be college, university, bible school, tech school OR NOT. Our true happiness in life comes when we are in His will, not ours no matter how much education under our belts. This post made me repent for my "self-esteem being in my kids schooling" and made me immediately start a conversation with God. Thank you.
Posted by: Susanne | March 18, 2006 1:07 PM
Janet: No, I didn't mean girls shouldn't go to college, so I'm glad I followed up to say that my younger two daughters probably will. I just think that parents should respect their children's choices and not force them into college track. For some creative or entrepreneurial types, that would be a big waste of time.
And I would never say one way is superior to another - well, hardly ever. I would say being open to allowing God to reveal his purpose in each individual child's life is better than starting your family with preconceived ideas about what ALL your kids are going to do. No room for the Holy Spirit in that kind of controlled situation.
birchmama asked: One thing I was curious about:
What did you mean about state universities not protecting our daughters? I think I MAY know what you mean, but I wanted you to clarify that.
I meant that I will not send my daughter (or my sons either) to a school with coed dorms and no curfews. Period. End of story.
Posted by: barbaracurtis | March 18, 2006 4:43 PM
Thank you all for sharing your hearts regarding grandparenting and college. I am not against college for girls, per se, but do get flustered when there seems to be an assumption that they WILL go, and that when a girl says she wants to be a wife and mommy, that that is somehow either not good enough, or something that will be great AFTER she finds herself through a college setting. My hope is that at the end of it all, our children will leave our home loving the Lord, loving His Word, and delighting to do whatever it is that He is calling them to. I am hopeful that they will continue to love learning, love reading, and will have confidence in knowing that they have choices in how they will continue to be educated. In any case, I am encouraged to see other "first generation" parents watch their children make those same kinds of choices with wisdom. Anyhow, thank you all so much for your comments!
Keri
Posted by: Keri | March 18, 2006 6:23 PM
GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT post!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: molly | March 18, 2006 9:32 PM
As a high school teacher I agree that the education accomplished in public schools today is not what it was twenty or forty years ago. Colleges are complaining quite publically these days about the lack the students who are entering their campuses have. The SAT writing test (added just this year) was put into play because too many students can't write, but the original format did not alert schools to that. There are many reasons for the downfall of public ed, so I won't bother hashing those. But I would add, both from my persepective and my familys' (most of us have multiple degrees and my father is a professor) college is not only not for everyone, it is not even a RIGHT, it is a PRIViLEGE that you earn! The average student takes 7 years and changes majors multiple times. That is someone who should not be in college. Further, only 20% of the US population has a four year degree. Yet, 80% of high school seniors indicate an intention to pursue one. That seems like a lot of people set up to feel that they have failed in life somehow. College is important and necessary for several professions, but associate degrees, technical schools and apprentice programs are just as important and should be encouraged and presented as often. Rural schools seem to be more aware of this reality and present students with a more balanced view of their options, at least so far in my experience. The more urban schools, especially suburban are more likely to push the idea that college is the only option.
Posted by: Sandy | March 19, 2006 12:59 AM
Barbara, I had to write that previous comment because I thought that was what you were getting at after reading the first one but this one I understand what you meant. I was just saying thanks for clarifying. You know I agree with so much of what you say!! THanks for being yoU!
Janet
Posted by: janet | March 19, 2006 8:55 PM
Thank you for this great post. My husband who works in higher ed. really enjoyed the info on 8th grade grad requirements in 1895. (Eighth Grade Final Examination from Salinas County, Kansas)What an eye opener ...
Posted by: Angie H. | March 22, 2006 12:23 PM
I am floored by some of the comments posted on here. College IS for everyone. MOST people who graduate from college earn significantly more money throughout their lifetime than those who don't. The world is becoming more and more competitive and those without an education of some sort have a lesser chance of a "making it". The thing with a college degree is this...it gives you more options. Even though you may not plan on using your degree you can always put it away to pursue another avenue. Marriage, kids, start a business, write a book, get a labor intensive job, whatever. You really never know, later on in life you may end up using your degree because something may happen (husband may pass away, divorce, illness, anything can happen)and the degree may come in handy. Anyway who says you can't have marriage, kids and the degree? Does one exclude the other? Teaching our children, esspecially our girls that a degree is not important because their husbands will take care of them is simply irresponsible parenting. Once again anything can happen in life and without the strong foundation of a good formal education to fall back on they are left with little or no options.
Posted by: Lorraine | May 19, 2008 1:07 AM
