April 22, 2007 10:49 AM
Grammar rant
I can't believe how unteachable some people can be!
I had edited someone's caption which originally read: "This is X and me" to read "This is X and I." (I do edit comments to fix typos and grammatical errors - a good editor always tries to make writers look their best, and when you all write comments, I want you to look your best)
Received this email:
Can you do me a favor? Under my caption, it now reads X and I instead of me and X. This is simply a grammatical thing with me that my English teachers have drilled into me since childhood. Can you please change it back to what I originally wrote? Thanks so much!
As a service, I wrote back:
Actually it is supposed to be X and I in this case. I don't know whether you have studied parts of sentences or diagramming, but in this sentence "X and I" is a predicate nominative, which means it's interchangeable with "this" - thus the subject of the sentence, thus the nominative case. It would be X and me if you said something where "X and me" was the object. As in "My husband will drive X and me” or "Can you send a note to X and me." Trust me. I'm a writer and editor :) But here are some references from googling predicate nominative and pronoun: English Plus Grammarlove,
barbara
I say "as a service" because I really didn't have time to look up the links, but did it as a help, so she would have outside evidence of correct grammar.
Can you believe I received this back:
It really sounds wrong to me...I don't get into all of the pronoun stuff, but this is the general rule that I know... if you take one or the other out of the sentence, it should flow as if the other were not there. This is X and I... This is X This is I (wrong)...should be This is me. You can just delete the caption. Thanks for the links though.
I wrote back:
no, ____ - it should be This is I. It sounds wrong because most people in our society get it wrong. Read the links I sent. And please keep in mind that I am a professional writer and editor. barbara
I am so flabbergasted when I run into this kind of unteachability!
I mean, we all make mistakes - but while you might be more able to get away with poor grammar in speaking, written communication demands the best. To have someone even take the time to educate you (because this isn't opinion, it's fact) and then to insist you're right - well, I don't know, there's just no excuse for it.
Now, either she misinterpreted what her teachers taught, or they did not know correct rules of grammar. I hope it was the former and not the latter.
Another pet peeve: You did good. I hear teachers say this all the time. I also hate hearing "you guys" scattered throughout communication.
Do you all have any pet peeves?
Comments
Too many [and too boring] to list! But for anyone who is needing additional guidance - 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves' by Lynne Truss, is an enjoyable way to investigate. [Not an advertisement, just a suggestion]
Best wishes
Posted by: mcewen | April 22, 2007 12:00 PM
Between you and I is one of my pet peeves, or people who think that there is never a place for you and me.
I do struggle on my blog at times between the desire to use proper grammar and the desire to sound conversational. Sometimes using proper grammar doesn't sound correct to people's ears because, like you said, most people say certain phrases incorrectly.
A grammar book that I really enjoyed reading is
Woe Is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English
by Patricia T. O'connor. It was easy to read and settles many grammar questions.
(Oh, I'm feeling pressure to make sure I phrase everything in a grammatically correct way in this comment, AND I can't resist doing a little editing, myself. You wrote: "but while you can might be more able to get away with poor grammar in speaking,.." You need to delete the "can". Sorry, I just had to be cheeky!)
Posted by: Jennifer | April 22, 2007 12:08 PM
I read the book the mcewen mentioned...it was hilarious!
My pet peeves? The influx of "internet-speak" in the real world. I even occasionally catch myself writing LOL in an actual letter...then have to correct myself.
I can't stand mistakes in punctuation, particularly apostrophes and their terrible misuse. I don't even think I need to explain that one.
I recently left an online group of military spouses because I got so frustrated trying to read what most of them were writing. I mentioned that the reason I was leaving was due to all the typograpical errors, misuse and abuse of the English language, and the perpetual whining going on.
What I got back was this: "I dont appreciate this at all. many of us wifes here are edducated".
Oy.....
Posted by: Linda | April 22, 2007 12:32 PM
And just for you from todays comics: http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/002414.php
Todays "For Better or For Worse" is a strip about grammar. :)
Posted by: wanderingrose | April 22, 2007 12:40 PM
Eats, Shoots and Leaves is riddle throughout with it's own poor editorial typos. I found it rather funny.
Anyway, my pet peeve (or one of them) is gramatical as well as mathematical: the decimal is said as and. I absolutely can't stand it when someone reads a number out loud and says and when there is no decimal. If I type 123 it should be said, "one hundred twenty-three". So many people will say, "one hundrend and twenty-three". One hundred and twenty-three is written 100.23.
I always have to double check the totals on registers when I am at a store and making a purchase. I don't trust what is said to me; I only go by what I see on the register for the amount.
One of our homeschooling text (a science book) wrote out some dates and inserted and in the number. I wrote the author of the book and pointed this out so that a possible edit could be done in the upcoming new edition. As homeschoolers, we are a much higher scrutany than many educators. I think it's of utmost importance to teach our children correctly, for many reasons - too many to list here, right now. The response I got was, "The book was written in conversational English to make it easier for young children to understand and grasp." I was flabbergasted. Why not write it correctly to teach them correct English instead of continuing to encourage and accept the improper use of the and in numerical form.
Posted by: the SmockLady | April 22, 2007 12:41 PM
I LOVE Eats, Shoots and Leaves!
SmockLady - I don't think it's riddled with typos - it's just that Lynn Truss is British and there are some differences between the two continents when it comes to punctuation. As an American, I just overlooked those and laughed at her hilarious exposition of the confusion caused by broken grammar. Then gave it to my kids to help them remember themselves.
Posted by: barbara | April 22, 2007 1:46 PM
In light of your post regarding grammar, I submit to you today's "For Better or Worse" comic strip. It goes very well with your observations.
http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/index.php
Posted by: Christa | April 22, 2007 2:26 PM
Barbara,
I sometimes blow past grammatical errors in my own writing, but it's not because I think grammar is unimportant.
When people argue these points, as the reader your describing did, I think something deeper is going on.
There's more to grammar than just rules to be memorized. Grammar is a reflection of the logical process behind what is written. Grammar is a way of ordering our writing to reflecct the ordering of our thoughts.
Now, when people insist that incorrect grammar is correct, I have to think it's not just because they don't know the rule, but that the don't grasp the logical prinicple behind the rule.
Logic and language are awfully connected, mess up one, mess up the other.
Posted by: Dean | April 22, 2007 2:29 PM
I just hate to hear someone pronounce "library" as "li-berry"! There are strawberries, blueberries, black berries, but absolutely NO li"berries"!
I also hate to hear the song "Heart of Worship" sung as "It's all about chew, all about chew Jesus" instead of "It's all about You, all about You..."
But since I'm from Mississippi, I'm sure I make plenty of grammatical errors. LOL!
Posted by: Drewe Llyn Jeffcoat | April 22, 2007 2:47 PM
When I was at primary school in New Zealand in the 70's, there wasn't really an emphasis on grammar. Well I remember very little and my older brothers and sister are much better with the use of grammar. I know the basics!
So you won't get any comments from me if you edit my comments!! LOL!
And as for my use of punctuation - let's not go there!
I should get a good book to learn a bit more about grammar and punctuation.
Now spelling, that's a whole different issue. I dislike spelling mistakes. :-)
Cheers, WIlm
Posted by: Wilm | April 22, 2007 3:12 PM
Hmm, I think the most galling thing in this instance was the unwillingness of this individual to reconsider her point, given your explanation ( not to mention your credentials)
If we are going to rail about a pet peeve we need to be pretty certain that our own house is 'in order' lest we undermine our own point! I'm not going to list them here, but I have spotted some spelling errors, which happen to be my pet peeve ;)
Can I also add that in England "one hundred twenty three" is considered an 'Americanism'.Here it is more correct to say the 'and' before the twenty three.
All that said, we all have strengths and blind spots, the issue of unteachability is, for me the biggest peeve of all. I remember when my sister-in-law was expecting a surprise baby very soon after baby number one. Her GP (family doctor,general practitioner) was not able to estimate her due date and told her to wait for a scan. Her mother had guessed (by looking) when she thought the baby was due. I am a midwife and offered to estimate the due date by abdominal palpation ( no, I have no idea why the GP couldn't do this)
When I announced my estimate, my sister-in-laws mother dismissed it as 'nonsense' and doggedly stuck to the date she had dreamt up ( a full two months shy of mine) I just couldn't believe it. I said nothing at all but did get some quiet satisfaction some months later when the baby arrived within a week of my estimate.
Posted by: Clare | April 22, 2007 3:20 PM
I agree with the previous commenters. The misuse of "I" as an object is my no. one peeve, and the abuse of the apostrophe is my no. two.
Posted by: Amanda | April 22, 2007 3:34 PM
Clare -
you said:
If we are going to rail about a pet peeve we need to be pretty certain that our own house is 'in order' lest we undermine our own point! I'm not going to list them here, but I have spotted some spelling errors, which happen to be my pet peeve ;)
My point was not that people should be shamed for making mistakes. My spelling errors are usually typos and they get through because I haven't cut and pasted from Movable Type to Word and done a spell-check to catch them like I do 80% of the time, but not when I'm running out the door and want to publish something before I leave. If you subscribe to a feed of my site you get the worst of it, because I eventually do correct the typos when I see them later.
My point was that when someone points out a mistake, you need to take heed. Which I will do now by going through the process I neglected on this post. And I will be more careful not topublish on the fly - although I can't promise never because I am a compulsive communicator.
I actually make no judgments when I edit comments - just do it as a service. I don't think anyone is smarter because their copy is clean or dumber because it's not. Among my children - whom I homeschooled for many years, I had left-brained and right-brained people. I may spell well, but I'll never be an artist :)
To me, though, stupidity is when someone clings to something when they've been proven wrong. In this case it was a point of grammar, but it could be something far more serious and with far more serious consequences.
Just last Friday I spent some time on the phone with an editor who was going over one of my articles with me and some tweaking he had done. All his input strengthened my writing. I would have been a fool to argue with him (although I have on accession had an editor who isn't as good a writer and have felt embarrassed at the results that were printed since editors do have final say).
Posted by: barbara | April 22, 2007 3:51 PM
I am constantly amazed by the disrespect in this country. Rules and irritations should always be last on our list. I don't care how "right" a person is, they should keep quiet if their knowledge creates an atmosphere of disrespect. This is your blog and you are a renowned writer. Period. That's where the discussion ends. If this person is so egotistical that she can't let someone with much more talent and writing experience correct something as insignificant as "I" then she should not be writing. After all, this isn't for money, publication or some award. This is a blog. Get over it, get a life, move on. Her main focus should be on respecting you, your ownership of the blog, your desire to help. I am a writer and anyone who choses to edit my work will receive my grateful appreciation. I don't care how much I'm published, there will always be room for improvement. I will graciously accept any information I'm given. I don't have to act on that information but I must be respectful.
Posted by: Debbie | April 22, 2007 4:17 PM
Ugh, I've just had to deal with an issue within our wives' group, with which the least problem was the grammar and punctuation of the email that precipitated it. But that was in itself painful to read.
Posted by: Katie Gillet | April 22, 2007 5:03 PM
Barbara
I know you're right but when it comes to grammar and sentence diagramming my eyes glaze over and my mind flips out to what other things I have planned for the day. This is my biggest weakness in homeschooling. Why is grammar such an albatross in my life? Do the public schools have it all wrong, their method of teaching grammar? Do you know of a english-grammar teaching method that is friendly to types like me (or is it I)?
Posted by: Barb | April 22, 2007 5:38 PM
I used the A Beka language series with my kids and loved it.
I am a big fan of the old-fashioned approach to grammar, including sentence diagramming. Diagramming teaches logical thinking and when you have that early foundation, I think it shows later on in your writing.
I will do a post soon on the curriculum I've used. But my approach is tradiitional and academic (that's what worked for me). Maybe then people can add their two cents for different learning styles.
Posted by: barbara | April 22, 2007 5:52 PM
Oh dear Barbara, my rather oblique comment wasn't actually referring to you at all! I'm not actually aware of spotting spelling errors in your writing( nor am I looking for them)though I'm sure they crop up from time to time.
The fact is, it's spelling rather than grammar that tweaks me, the errors I spotted were not in your writing but one of your commenters. Because I regard my pedantry in this area as rather ungracious, and probably a poorer reflection on me than anyone else, I was deliberately vague about what I was driving at. It certainly wasn't you however. I think the tone of my post sounded a bit sarcastic, which isn't at all how it sounded in my head. Fact is, I rely more on facial expressions and intonation than I realise.
As I said in my last comment "All that said, we all have strengths and blind spots, the issue of unteachability is, for me the biggest peeve of all."
I do enjoy your posts, and I love the clarity with which you're able to express your thoughts. I certainly never trawl any of the blogs I visit looking for errors!
So, apologies for sounding snotty in my earlier comment, I'm actually gawjus ;)
Posted by: Clare | April 22, 2007 6:20 PM
Clare -
Thanks for writing to let me off the hook. Sorry for my paranoia. but as I once heard someone say, "Even paranoids have enemies." :) and I had a comment from an Australian who seemed to think I'd emphasized my credentials too much. When I checked, it seemed that every comment she'd ever left here had been cutting me down to size. Have y'all ever heard of Tall Poppy Syndrome - a cultural plague in the land down under?
Posted by: barbara | April 22, 2007 6:40 PM
Or as we say "Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not all out to get me"
Teehee.
Posted by: Clare | April 22, 2007 6:51 PM
My #1 pet peeve is the phrase "try and". You cannot "try" and do something. You are either trying to do something, or you are doing it.
The other major pet peeve is the phrase "a whole nother" which looks ridiculous when written but I hear spoken all the time, as in "that's a whole nother story..."
I will stop commenting on grammar now, since I am sure to make quite a few mistakes and undermine my own credibility!
Posted by: Milehimama | April 22, 2007 6:56 PM
My pet peeve is when someone misuses the word 'literally'. For instance, I once heard an interview on the radio where a judge who'd passed down a (very much deserved) sentence on someone who was dying of cancer. The judge said it that passing the sentence 'literally killed him' because he knew the person being sent to jail wouldn't live to get out.
*runs screaming out of the room from zombie judge*
Posted by: Spring | April 22, 2007 8:43 PM
I'll have to agree with milhimama. "A whole nother" is my absolute pet peeve. There was even a Cheerios commercial years ago with this phrase in the jingle. It wasn't on very long!
Posted by: Becca | April 22, 2007 11:12 PM
Oh dear- I was a teacher and often said "You did good"...here I am, ready to learn...
One of my pet peeves is when calvary and cavalry are used interchangeably.
Posted by: Keri L | April 23, 2007 12:05 AM
Barbara,
Louis Menand tore the Truss book to shreds in his review in The New Yorker when the book was published here in the US. And no, the errors are not simply differences between US English and UK English. This post quotes from the Menand review:
http://res-gestae.blogspot.com/2007/02/pray-he-goes-home-companion.html
Unfortunately, the complete Menand review is no longer available online.
James Kilpatrick referred to the book as "grammar lite" and made the following observations (among others):
[Truss]needlessly splits an infinitive or two ... She remarks in an aside that "it's impolite to tell someone they're wrong." She tends to feel "that if a person genuinely wants to know how to spell 'Connecticut,' they will look it up."
Posted by: RevJATB | April 23, 2007 12:07 AM
You mentioned teachers who perhaps do not know the correct rules of grammar. I recently heard a story about this very thing.
In the town where we live, the local high school offers German classes, and there happens to be a German exchange student at the school right now. The German teacher (who is not a native speaker) was teaching the class that the third person singular form of laden is ladet rather than lädt. Even when the German girl in the class pointed out this error (which would be as egregious an error as saying "catched" or "goed" would be in English), the teacher persisted and told the German girl that she was wrong!
I'm not surprised: I had a high school history teacher who taught us about World War Eleven. That's what it looked like to her.
Posted by: RevJATB | April 23, 2007 12:28 AM
I hate it when people don't punctuate in their typewritten communication. (No capitalization, for example.) Ugh!
Posted by: Holly | April 23, 2007 7:08 AM
Rev JATB - I still like the book enormously! And I really don't care for the elitist New Yorker style, so I guess that figures. My own writing goal has been to write simply so that anyone can access my ideas. I appreciate authors like Lynn Truss who do that as well. Of course she'll be criticized by those who wish they could sell as many books - and have access to as many minds - as she has. :)
Holly - ouch! I don't use capitals when I write personal emails - and sometimes in comments, I think. I think of it as a my one-on-one style, I guess. But when I find out it bugs someone - like my friend Mel at Actual Unretouched Photo - I try to use capitals when I write them.
Notice. I. Am. Using. Capitals. :)
Posted by: barbara | April 23, 2007 7:15 AM
Barbara,
I hate it when people get their, they're and there mixed up. And the use of then and than mixed up. And I laughed when your reader commented on li-berry. I hear that all the time.
Shannon in Austin
PS: But one thing I say all day long is ya'll. :)
Posted by: Shannon best | April 23, 2007 9:26 AM
