November 4, 2007 10:06 AM
What does it mean to be pro-life?
I spoke yesterday at Maryland United for Life's annual conference. Maddy snapped this picture and also took care of selling books. What a sweetie!
The talk I gave is "Mother of 12 (and Former Radical Leftist) Lives to Tell About It!"
Besides my personal history, which includes years in the counterculture as an anti-war organizer, abortion rights spokesperson, drug addict, and welfare mother - plus having an abortion myself in 1977 (that child would now be 30 years old and how I wish I knew him or her!) - I talk about how coming to know God changed my view on the value of human life.
If you don't understand that your own life is sacred, there is no way you can understand that a baby's is as well. This is the gap that divides those who believe in abortion and those who believe in life.
How do you bridge that gap?
You begin with yourself - by honestly reflecting on whether your own life reflects a regard for life as a gift and a blessing. I describe my experience coming into Christianity with five children and expecting to hear Evangelicals singing a different tune than I'd been hearing in the world: One's more than I can handle," "I don't know how you do it - my two are enough to drive me crazy." And so on. Unfortunately, I found Evangelicals to be - with rare exceptions - pretty conformed to the world in this regard - thinking of children as burdens rather than blessings, and trading material wealth for the only real stake we have in the future: our children.
This is the challenge - to ask yourself if the media is correct and you are simply anti-abortion, or if you are truly pro-life. I have said publicly in a few venues now that Tripp and I are on our way to converting to Catholicism.
While that may shock some of my readers, I must tell you it is because of this life issue that we have felt drawn for years - since we lived in California and had some dear friends who lived an admirably simple life in order to work and give all they had to the pro-life cause. Even among Protestant missionaries - who nowadays typically raise support from others rather than making their own way - I have rarely seen that kind of self-sacrifice in order to do the work of God.
Lately, as I have been asked to speak at several pro-life events - where Catholics always outnumber Evangelicals - and after covering the Aurora IL Planned Parenthood clinic and interviewing evangelical leaders who've been working side-by-side with Catholics and who admit how AWOL the evangelical community has been on this issue - I am feeling more and more compelled to do what I am seeing more and more as the right thing.
Well, I started to share what I share when I speak at pro-life groups and have ended up opening what I'm sure may seem to some quite a can of worms. One thing you will know is that wherever Tripp and I go on our spiritual journey I will be sharing with you how and why.
In the meantime, I want to encourage all of my readers to consider what it means to be pro-life and to ask yourselves if there is something you need to do that will take you out of your comfort zone. We are not called to a live of comfort, but a life of service.
The material prosperity enjoyed by our culture has lulled many evangelicals into complete insensibility. Remember how Marx called religion the opiate of the masses? While for many years as a leftist I believed that, I now understand how wrong he was. Religion should not dull your sensibilities, but sharpen them. Faith should be a call to action, a call to serve - maybe not in a big, dramatic way, but in ways that God can see and ways that He can use.
These are my thoughts as they tumble out this Sunday morning when I had to stay home with Jonny because he's not feeling well. I've been thinking about this for a long time, and wasn't expecting to share these ideas until I had time to sit down and compose something careful and well thought out. Perhaps it's better that you just hear the process I am in in a real and transparent way - kind of like you dropped by to see me this morning for coffee and one thing led to another and I trusted you enough to tell you where I really am.
In the meantime, because I set out to tell you what I share at pro-life events, I want to go back to say that I hope if you are planning a pro-life event that you might consider inviting me to speak. These events are my favorite places to be these days!
Thank you to all the kind souls I met yesterday in Ellicott City - your encouragement and promised prayers mean so much to me!
Posted in Catholicism, My life, Pro-Life Issues | Permalink
Comments
I'm sure you'll get some less than pleasant responses to your post, so let me say something different - "Welcome". My dh and I made the journey from non-believers to evangelicals to Tridentine Catholic over a 10 year period. After 5+ years, I'm still sure we're in the right place; right where God led us.
Posted by: Lucretia | November 4, 2007 11:50 AM
Dear Barbara, Praise God for you and Tripp being on your way to becoming Catholic! When I read your new post, my heart filled with great joy! Being a cradle Catholic, I know the many graces, blessings, and sheer joy of being a Catholic and being able to receive copious shares of grace, God's Divine Life, through the Sacraments. I have been reading your blog for about 6 months and I have wondered why you were not already Catholic as you already speak and act like a Catholic, despite me knowing that you were an Evangelical. Many converts into the Church today come from being active in the Pro-Life Movement and/or discerning whether artificial birth control is wrong. One well known speaker today, Kimberly Hahn, became Catholic after studying if artificial birth control was wrong and coming to the conclusion that it was not Biblical and the only Church still teaching this belief was the Catholic Church. The Good Lord is bringing into His Church many wonderful and faith filled Protestants. Their energy and zeal, love of Scripture, and many abilities in evangelization are revitalizing the Catholic Church today. I have been blest to be the recipient of many of their talks and books. I am sure that God will continue to use you for His greater glory as you continue your spiritual journey into the Church and after you become Catholic! I am inspired by your courage to "open a can of worms" possibly with your blogging readers about your decision. I will inform my Catholic friends about you and we will pray for you during this exciting, and perhaps difficult, time.
Posted by: Julie C.M. | November 4, 2007 12:10 PM
Thanks for sharing your conviction Barb. You have my prayers and full support.
Posted by: Elena | November 4, 2007 12:19 PM
What a wonderful post. I am always touched when I read your writings, this one had me in tears. Tears of sadness for those little ones who will never know life, but tears of happiness for you and yours, Barbara. Dear Barbara, welcome home.
Hope Jonny is feeling better soon.
Posted by: Aine | November 4, 2007 12:28 PM
Barbara- Wow! Is'nt it amazing how the catholics are more pro-life than the protestants? I am identifying myself at " L" today because of some info. I am about to share that is not public knowledge yet........
DH and I are happily expecting our 4th child. :) This, after over a year of me praying that God would reveal his will to my DH. :) We were both a bit scared to take the leap, but felt we should trust God. I feel God's presence in my life more than ever, right now.......Even with a very busy household. We have 3 boys, and so we get the " are you gonna try to a girl?" comments. How annoying. Of course we'd like a girl, but we trust God more than anything else. I am gearing myself up for these comments again, since I have not yet announced this pregnancy.
The main reason I have not announced this baby is because of my wonderful Christian father who was so RUDE about the news of our 3rd child. He hurt me deeply......... He DID apologize, but after my DH forced him to apologize........ I also have a relative who believes in population zero, and makes jokes about my future family that are subtlly meant to make me look like a fool.......So to make a long story short, DH and I are praying about how to announce this........
Now, I wanted to touch on the catholic issue....... Guess who was supportive when I announced my 3rd pregnancy? My FIL!!! He is catholic, and while his immediate family was not large, he loved the large extended family........
I announced our 3rd baby to my in-laws first, and my MIL hugged me even though she is not catholic and wanted to stop at 2. :) My FIL offered to come with me to break the news to my dad.......
Well, I need to run, but I wanted to send you HUGS Barbara........Keep fighting the good fight......Your blog has really touched my life........
Posted by: L | November 4, 2007 12:43 PM
Barbara,
Yes, you are right that it is about time we helped folks connect the dots--we can't claim to be pro-life if we are anti-child!
Keep opening up those wormy cans--we all need to hear it!
Posted by: Sherry | November 4, 2007 1:03 PM
I've heard the argument before from a Biblical scholar that the power and authority of God, if it is on the earth, can only be in one of two places. Catholicism or Mormonism. One claims an unbroken chain of authority from God, the other claims the power of God and Christ's true church were lost and have been restored. One has a Pope, acting as the central leader, the other has a Prophet acting as head.
I'm glad, Barbara, that you feel the courage to act in the way you are being led.
Posted by: Emily | November 4, 2007 2:13 PM
I respect you guys' passion for pro-life and admire it. However, Miss "L", please don't lump Protestants into one big group. While there are Protestant denominations that are, sadly, liberal in their views, there are also Protestant churches that are highly conservative. In my church, for example, big families are the rule, not the exception. Most of the families have more than two children. Frankly, I think that when it comes to pro-life, there is a diverse group of Christian supporters. Thanks for letting me comment, Miss Barbara, and I hope to read more of your upcoming posts!
Posted by: Maiden of God | November 4, 2007 2:22 PM
Deo Gratias!!! I am sorry this comment will be brief, but I hope you will understand. I love to read your blog and for as long as I have we have been praying for the Holy Spirit to lead you and your family to the truths of the Catholic Church. I know you have a long road ahead of you and you will stay in our prayers. Thank you for causing the (hopefully first) tears of joy today as I am in labor with our third son and we do look forward to seeing him!
God Bless,
Monica
Posted by: Monica | November 4, 2007 2:42 PM
Hi Barbara, THANKYOU FOR SHARING YOUR STORY FOR TIME IS SO PRECIOUS. I RECENTLY READ A BOOK TO BETTER UNDERSTAND OTHER RELIGIONS FOR RECENTLY WE HAVE MOVED TO 3 CHURCHES IN 4 YEARS. WE ARE PRAYING FOR THE LORD'S GUIDANCE FOR WE NEED IT DESPARATELY. OUR HEART IS TO HELP OTHERS IN THE CHURCH AND OUT OF CHURCH. WE NEED THE FOUNDATION OF THE CHURCH TO BE SOLID. JESUS [1ST]THE PASTOR AND SO FORTH. THE BOOK I READ SAID THAT IF ANYONE OTHER THAN JESUS IS THE MEDIATOR IT IS NOT RIGHT."CHECK IT OUT" LINE UP EXACTLY WHO ALL IS THE MEDIATOR THAN YOU WILL KNOW WHAT TO DO. IF YOU KNOW YOUR WORD YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THIS. SOMETIMES OUR HEART ACHES AND LONGS FOR OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST. LET'S STAND AND FOLLOW ONLY WHAT GOD SAYS. YOUR TRUE SISTER IN CHRIST. I HOPE THIS HELPS YOU LIKE IT DID ME. GLORY BE TO GOD!
Posted by: STEPHANIE | November 4, 2007 2:53 PM
Well, welcome!
There is so much more to discover in the Church too. Have you read Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body? You can get a good, easy to understand version through the writings of Christopher West. It's more than just "not birth control" or "embrace children". It's understanding our bodies and our genders and the sacrament of matrimony and sex within marriage as a living symbol of how God loves us (He as the "male, giver, protector, head" figure, we as the "female, receiver, beloved" figure), AND a symbol of the Church as the bride of Christ. It's powerful, moving, humbling, uplifting stuff. I do recommend it.
I'm overjoyed that you are thinking of joining the Catholic Church! (Do be warned, though... depending on where you live... you will likely find plenty of "Catholic" families who go to church each week but who use birth control and see and refer to children as burdens as well. Ignoring the Church's teachings on these subjects is very common in some parts of the country, like Massachusetts...However, I don't think you'll find yourself feeling like a freak so much, because even those Catholics are aware of what the teaching is, and are usually aware in some way that they are not following it).
Posted by: Jill (colicmommy) | November 4, 2007 2:55 PM
I think it is so cool that you are considering Catholicism! I'm a cradle Catholic myself, but my husband took a much different road: he was raised nominally Catholic, was lead to Christ by some non-denominational cousins (for whom I am so grateful: it is because of them that I found a Christian husband), considered himself non-denominational, charismatic Christian for a few years, before being led back to Catholicism in college as a result of personal study of the Catholic Church's teachings.
Can't wait to hear more about your journey. Are you definitely converting (signed up for RCIA and all that), or still considering?
Best wishes, and thanks for trusting us enough to share!
Posted by: Marisa | November 4, 2007 3:29 PM
Dear Barbara,
Congrats to both you and your husband!
My husband and I went through RCIA last year and became Catholics at Easter Mass this year. We are quite happy with the Catholic Church especially on the subjects of birth control and sanctity of life. :-) I live in Loudoun and I hope to meet you and your family one day. Your blog and personal testimonies are such a godly inspiration to me :-)
Aisha
Posted by: AIsha Hoffman | November 4, 2007 4:07 PM
Barbara,
I appreciate the Catholics' consistent pro-life position, and I think they should be commended for it.
I scratch my head, though, at how you can wrap your head around some of the other doctrines, for example, the Mary business. She was not immaculately conceived, she did not live a sinless life, and she does not have extra grace to dispense to us. Nor, for that matter, do the other fellow believers that have been declared "saints" whose excess virtue we can supposedly receive for our salvation. We should not be praying to them. They are sinners, like us, saved by Christ's merit, and no one else's.
It seems to me we can be 100% pro-life and yet avoid these doctrines which completely contradict the gospel. How do you reconcile these fundamental RC beliefs with Christianity?
Posted by: Marie | November 4, 2007 4:37 PM
I do want to apologize if it seemed as though I gave a grim " generalization" of protestant Christians......I am well aware that the attitudes towards children do vary within region. I live in the west, where smaller families are the norm. The attitude out here is generally the attitude that Barbara has described.......Elsewhere, it may be different, as I am told. :)
Keep us posted on your journey, Barbara....I am very curious about this....
Posted by: L | November 4, 2007 6:28 PM
My husband and I are joyfully expecting our 4th blessing from God! We yearn for more children. When we were engaged, people would ask us how many children we wanted. We had decided to say 12 for a shock value, then would tell them six. But honestly, we were never opposed to 12! People at church (a Southern Baptist) ask if we are through (we have 3 girls and this one appears to be a boy). We answer that we pray not! One dear old lady, a lifelong friend of my family, asked if I was crazy. I smiled and answered "you've known me all my life. That should be a simple question for you to answer! Yes, I'm crazy! Since when have I done anything everyone else does?" She laughed and that was the end for her. But I continued, "My grandmother was 13 of 14. If her family had been done at 4, I would not be here. Her grandfather was 12 of 13, if his parents had stopped at 4, I would not be here. Big families are kinda important to my little life. I want to give unknown future generations that same chance to life that previous generations gave me!" Still many in our church make those little thoughtless comments. My fave - "how will you put up with them all". My answer: "My mom has taught in the public school for 20+ years. Year after year she has 23 or more students. She does it with grace and strength from the LORD. And you pay her to do it! I'll depend on the same grace and strength from the same LORD, but depend on Him for my pay!"
I also understand Barbara's desire for something more from the evangelical side of Christians. I want them to read the scripture for what It says and not for the worldview so many have acquired during the years. I want them to see children as a blessing, not a curse or burden to be pawned onto someone else. (NOT referring to cases where it is necessary for the mother to work. Mine had to for a season. There is a whole mentality that says I'll let someone else do my God given work of raising my children so I can go do what God called me to do! As if...well, most of you understand!) I long for more respect, honor and true worship of God during the worship service. But I guess that true believers in both the Catholic and Evangelical churches both desire to see more right believing and living within our ranks. What my husband and I have decided God wants for us, is to stay where we are for now. And if the only people we convince of our beliefs are our children, may God give us more! And may they pass down these convictions to their large, multi-generationally thinking families! LORD-willing, in a few generations, we'll have out produced the anti-death crowd with pro-life!
(Sorry, guess for a few minutes I thought I was the blogger! My apologies Barbara!)
Posted by: Sara | November 4, 2007 6:34 PM
I think what matters here is that as long as we believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, that should be enough. It's all about the cross.
Posted by: Maiden of God | November 4, 2007 7:04 PM
[Barbara- I understand if you might want to delete the second half of my comment, if you don't want the conversation to head in that direction.]
I second what Jill (hey, there, Jill!) had to say- definitely check out Theology of the Body, if you haven't yet. It is amazing and beautiful, and since studying it myself I have not looked at my body, my marriage, my family, or my children the same way again. And I am glad Jill pointed out the (ahem!) "diverse" attitudes you will find among Catholics; after writing my first comment, I thought to add something like that myself. So sad but so true. But you can handle it; I don't imagine anything can shock you anymore :)
To Marie: the Bible does not say that Mary WASN'T immaculately conceived, or that she WASN'T sinless; hence, no contradiction of the Gospel there. The Catholic church teaches that all grace comes from God; Mary is "full of grace" because she was quite literally full with Christ; because her cooperation with God made the incarnation possible and consequently the grace of Christ's sacrifice available to everyone; and because she points us to Him. Moreover, her sinlessness was made possible only by the grace of God that filled her. When Catholics pray to saints we are simply asking for them to pray for us, just like we might ask other friends to pray for us. Most of us in our everyday lives know some individuals who are "prayer warriors," or who are particularly holy and close to the will of God. These are people whom we might go out of our way to ask that they might pray for us because they might be particularly insightful as to what to ask God on our behalf. The people we call saints are people who, because of the outstanding holiness of their lives, are people from whom we feel especially confident about requesting prayer.
Posted by: Marisa | November 4, 2007 7:17 PM
Well, you've "come out", so to speak. :)
You know, your faith journey leading you to Catholicism reminds me how important it is to be a good example of my faith to whomever might notice.
Posted by: Melissa S. in PA | November 4, 2007 7:54 PM
What joyful news! Converts like you and your family are revitalizing the Church. Welcome to the family!
Posted by: Kelly | November 4, 2007 8:28 PM
It's an epidemic! Although I'm very Baptist and likely to remain so unless the Lord shows me something new, I do see a lot of Protestants attracted to and converting to Catholicism these days. I'm praying that God will show you unmistakably where he wants you to serve Him.
Posted by: sherry | November 4, 2007 9:36 PM
Barbara,
Welcome home!
I am a Catholic "re-vert", born and raised Catholic, left the Church for ignorant and misguided reasons, had an epiphany of sorts on 2/15/2005, and joyfully returned. I'm so glad to be back. My prayer at Mass recently was how I adore God for guiding me back to where I belong, where we all belong.
I will keep you and your family in my prayers. You'll probably need it - the attacks on the Catholic Church are unreal. You probably know this site already, but any questions and concerns you may have about Catholicism can be answered at www.catholic.com. Scott Hahn's books are so insightful too. And I am currently reading Theology of the Body for Beginners. It makes the concepts easier for someone like me to understand!
All the best of God's blessings to you.
Posted by: Celeste | November 4, 2007 10:11 PM
Dear Marisa,
When you say, "the Bible does not say that Mary WASN'T immaculately conceived, or that she WASN'T sinless; hence, no contradiction of the Gospel there."
I must remind you that indeed, the Bible says that all mankind are sinners. Jesus is the only given exception. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God," etc., many other verses.
The only payment for our sins is the merit of Christ, not the "merit" of anyone else, no matter how great of a prayer warrior they may be. If other men and their goodness could save us, Jesus need not have come and died to pay for our sins. Alas, they could not. Thank God that Jesus did.
The actual doctrine of the RC church is: some Christians did so many good works that they overtake their sins, and they have extra merit to dispense. If we supplicate to them, they can cover some of our sins with the extra grace they have accrued. This is spelled out clearly in their church catechisms, and they make no effort to deny it.
I have many Catholic friends, many of whom are in the pro-life movement. I bear them no ill will. I am just very concerned about the basis of salvation as explained in the Roman Catholic catechisms. I'll state plainly it does not jive with Scripture.
"There is no other name given under heaven by which we may be saved."
When I get to know Roman Catholics I can sort of understand why they stay in the RC church, if they were raised there. They don't know anything different, and there is biblical truth taught there in some areas and certainly godly behavior in some areas.
But when someone who knows a Scripture-only basis of the gospel and turns from it, I cannot understand why. How can we look to other intercessors? How can we look for extra merit? How can we hope for some sort of "credit" for our good works? How can we see any value in reciting the Rosary a certain number of times?
I just can't get behind it.
Posted by: Marie | November 5, 2007 4:06 AM
Miss Marisa,
I must respectfully disagree with what you said. Just because the Bible didn't say that about Mary (that she was immaculate) doesn't mean that people should still pray to her. That's elevating her to Goddess stature. Should Jews pray to Elijah because he was a prophet of God? Mary was still a sinner, like the rest of us. She had fights with her husband and had a bedhead when she got up in the mornin. And she wasn't full of grace in that she radiated grace, she just had a child of grace in her womb. That doesn't elevate her status in any way: she was just the one God chose to carry Jesus. She wasn't the mother of GOd, but rather the mother of the human part that God attached Himself to. She wasn't made sinless by the fact that she was pregnant with Jesus. Mary was cleansed of her sins when she saw Jesus die on the Cross and accepted Him as her Savior.
In regards to saints, we don't have to ask them to pray for us. They're dead, and we can go directly to God about our requests. What better to go to the King of the Universe? The saints can't do anything for us because they're in Heaven praising and worshiping God. No one prays to their dead ancestors just because they were devout and holy. I don't mean to be so blunt, but that's the way it is.
Posted by: Maiden of God | November 5, 2007 6:46 AM
I'm enjoying reading this discussion - and hoping we can all stay respectful and compassionate.
I will have more to say on this issue, but can't today as I am busy with the kids.
Please know that this is not something I'm taking lightly or doing only for the pro-life issue. As an evangelical, I was taught to regard Catholics as not truly Christian - perhaps based on the fact that so many who call themselves Catholic do not really practice their faith. I discovered through getting to know some Catholics who were indeed Christians that some of the prejudice in evangelical circles was wrong.
Last year I spent a morning with Regina Doman and she said some things that really enlightened me about how wrong some evangelicals have it about what Catholics believe.
My intention is to sign up for an Inquirers' class so that I can better understand some of these issues about Mary and the saints. I think I do have a vague understanding of how they've been misconstrued, but I want to be able to know for sure.
I will say that I've belonged to some evangelical churches which had some strange, legalistic and extra-biblical beliefs - like if you don't speak in tongues you're not really Spirit-filled.
Wherever I go, I'll go because the Spirit leads me there. That's the bottom line.
I do have more to say and will say it as soon as I have some time.
Posted by: barbara | November 5, 2007 8:25 AM
Marie, read 1 Chronicles 22 and then Matthew:1-9
When God deigned to become Man, He created for himself a temple - Mary.
Imagine how the wise men and kings came to greet him as a King, bearing gifts and Christ received them in His temple, a temple only God could create, a living woman, her lap as His footstool! This is why Catholics believe she was created without stain, without original sin. How could Christ ever reside in a temple that was under the dominion of the Adversary (through sin)?
Perhaps this can help you understand this "Mary" business. She was not just a woman but one "whom all generations shall call blessed".
Sorry Barbara, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, so delete this if you want the comments to remain on the prolife focus!
Posted by: Milehimama | November 5, 2007 8:35 AM
I agree that Barbara's comboxes should remain prolife. But, for what it's worth, Mary is a perfect symbol of the pro-life message. She said "yes" to God, and God lived within her. As a Catholic, I do believe God preserved her from sin from birth so that she might be a perfect vessel to carry him and bring him to the world. Why would God enter the world through sin, when he came to defeat it? Why should he give it an advantage from the start?
Through her fiat (saying "yes"), Mary became, essentially, the New Ark of the Covenant, carrying the New Covenant within her - and it is for this reason she is shown, symbolically, in the Book of Revelation at the same time the Ark is mentioned. And being as she knew Christ intimately, loved him intimately, as his mother - I can think of no one better to ask her to pray for me as my mother and sister in Christ as I learn about her son.
As the Advent season nears, I recall the one time I sang a recital six months pregnant. One piece I performed was the Magnificat - "my soul doth magnify the Lord" - and I could feel the baby moving within me as I sang. I knew at that moment how Mary felt, such joy - but for her, the joy was greater for she carried the redeemer within her.
Congratulations, Barbara for realizing the truth and coming home. I pray for you and for your husband and children. May God always bless you.
--Ann Lewis
Posted by: Ann Margaret Lewis | November 5, 2007 9:25 AM
Goodness Barb. I will be praying for you. I agree that Evangelicals are often only anti-abortion and not truly pro-life, and that is very sad, however, wow, I don't even know what to say except that I am really shocked, but as you have said you will not do anything without the Lord's leading so I will just trust Him. Blessings on you and yours.
Posted by: Shelley | November 5, 2007 9:49 AM
I suppose my greatest pondering here deals with the fact that choice of religion is based on "what works" or the number of specific people we know having the fruit we desire, instead of what is true and defendable via the Scriptures. Thinking along these lines, if we are seeking a sense of community and pro-life (well, in terms of bearing children anyway), then Islam or Mormonism is just as practical, possible and permissible. Personally, I know three cradle Catholics that are not only NOT pro-life, they just do not have the JOY of the Lord (ie. they worry all the time, and are just plain joyless). However, I do not reject the Catholic faith based on these people I know; I reject it based on my understanding of Scripture and Scripture alone.
Here is some interesting research regarding how different groups of people believed as literally true different aspects of the Bible: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=282
Here is another regarding the diverse activity levels of different groups: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=93
Lastly, here is an article about how mainstream Catholics have become in America, and how that expresses itself: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=274
The point I am trying to make is that, again, what other people say, think or do should have no bearing on the TRUTH of the Holy Bible, and we ought to be living out our lives based on what IT says, not on tradition or doctrinal understandings garnered from organized religions.
In His grip,
Keri
Posted by: Keri | November 5, 2007 10:06 AM
Dear Marie and Maiden of God, I just want you to know that both of you have mistaken understandings of what the Catholic Church believes about Our Blessed Mother and the Communion of Saints. Marissa explained it properly and very well. To avoid a long and involved answer, if you really want to know what the Catholic Church teaches about these topics then you should go to the Catholic Answers website at www.catholic.com or www.biblechristiansociety.com. Also, www.ewtn.com has an extensive document library that can answer any question you may have. There are so many mistaken opinions about what the Catholic church teaches out there. Some of that is due to the ignorance of average Catholics and to the immoral behaviour of some Catholics. For that, I apologize. However, the Catholic Church has the FULLNESS of truth, not some of it. Hopefully, as Barbara navigates these questions, we can all be enlightened through her spiritual journey. Julie C.M.
Posted by: Julie C.M. | November 5, 2007 10:21 AM
Barbara,
WELCOME HOME!!! I have been reading your blog for over a year now, and I have just felt that underlying Catholic tone to your posts. And yes there are unfortunately many members of the Catholic Church who do not practice the faith entirely, we call them "cafeteria catholics" picking and choosing what they will believe. We homeschool and have a tutor come for some subjects, she is Protestant, she recently told us that we are the very first Catholic family she has met who is truly Catholic!
I have compassion on those Catholics and others on the outside who criticize our beliefs. The reason they do this is because they just are not educated on what the Church truly teaches. I would like to encourage others who misunderstand our faith, to read, research, don't be afraid to learn.
As a cradle Catholic I am ALWAYS learning more about my faith. I would recommend EWTN either radio or TV. I especially like their radio format because I can listen and learn while I do many other household tasks. And Mother Angelica is so entertaining! Also, for others that have questions about the Catholic faith there are call in shows where you can get your questioned answered even by former Protestants! Maybe they could explain it in terms Prostestants can understand. Look on their website to find a station near you, or listen live online!
I will be praying for you and your family as you embark on this most important and joyous time in your spiritual journey. I look forward to reading more about what you are learning! And I am sure you could teach me a few things along the way!
Posted by: Carolyn | November 5, 2007 10:27 AM
Hi Barbara,
I want to first say that I love and admire your stance on the pro life issue. Yes, we should all seek to honor the sanctity of life, since all life is from God. It is sad when ANYONE, regardless of their religious denomination, does not view children as a blessing from God. So, keep up your wonderful work to protect the weakest among us!!
That being said, I do want to address your desire to possibly convert to Catholicism. I got saved in 1994 when I was still in the RC church. God had been convicting me of sin in my life and drawing me to want to know Jesus more. I had always learned about Mary in the church, but Jesus was more on the sidelines. I was involved in an adulterous affair and I began to really wonder where I would spend eternity when I died. It was a frightening and sobering thought, indeed. I didn't know. God opened my eyes to the fact that "there is NONE righteous, no, NOT EVEN ONE."(Romans 3:10) He also showed me that "we are ALL as an unclean thing and all of our righteousnesses(good works) are as filthy rags."(Isaiah 64:6) "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23) "salvation is NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast".(Ephesians 2:9) My eyes were open to the fact that I was a sinner destined for Hell and deserving of it. There was nothing I could do to earn my salvation, absolutely NOTHING. All the good works I could ever do would never get me to Heaven. It is only the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross that paid the price for my sin. He was the sinless spotless lamb who was slain on my behalf. He died ONCE and for all. I realized this and accepted, by faith, that He is my only hope for eternal life. Apart from Christ, I can do NOTHING(John 15:5). This is the gospel!! The glorious news that although we are sinners, separated from God because of sin and deserving of Hell, He loved us so much and because of His unfathomable grace, He gave the gift of His Son to take our place!!!! That is what makes it so marvelous - we did nothing to deserve it!!! Praise His name!
Once my eyes were opened, I felt convicted to come out of the catholic church as what they teach regarding salvation is NOT the gospel preached by Christ Himself or His apostles."But even if we, or an angel of heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!"(Galations 1:8) Those are strong words, but they are the words of God coming through the apostle Paul.
I love many, many wonderful people in the catholic church, but my heart grieves for those whose eyes have been darkened by the devil to the truth of God. As for Mary being born immaculate or without sin, Mary herself says that she is a sinner in Luke 1:46,47 - "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR!" God is her saviour. Only sinners need saving. The bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ALL. This includes Mary. Only Jesus was born sinless. He alone was the sinless, spotless lamb who could take away the sin of the world.
Barbara, my prayer for you is that you search the Scriptures prayerfully and earnestly seek God in this matter. It's not a matter of what our preferences are, but what does God's word teach us. Jesus is THE ONLY WAY. Not our good works, nothing! Sadly, the RC church's teaching do not line up with Scripture and God has much to say on that. I will be praying for you!!
With love,
Libby
Posted by: Libby | November 5, 2007 10:48 AM
Marie,
It seems that you are confusing the forgiveness of sins and the reparation of sins. The Catholic church sees that we are all in this together, that our penances and fastings and reparations go into the spiritual Treasury of the Church. This is what is meant by applying the merits of the saints - not they overtook their sins and were able to somehow be forgiven without Christ, just because they were "good", but that the acts of love done out of sorrow for sin (penance) are never wasted, and can be given to others.
I recently posted on my blog:
The fact that people suffer temporal punishment for sin even though they are forgiven is not new. David was forgiven for his tryst with Bathsheba, but his son still died (2 Sam 12:11-14). Moses was forgiven for smacking the rock twice, but he still wasn't allowed to enter the Promised Land (Deut. 34:4).
Catholics also believe that no man is an island... we're all in this together. Just as St. Paul beat his flesh and suffered to make up what was lacking in the body of Christ (Col 1:24), His Church, our suffering isn't wasted. We can offer it up in place of the penance and purgation... our brothers and sisters in Christ should suffer. We can help a brother out.
Posted by: Milehimama | November 5, 2007 11:17 AM
And, I have to add, Catholics are not supposed to pray "to" saints and Mary in the same way we pray to God. For example, consider the common Catholic prayer called the Hail Mary (this is the prayer recited 10 times over with each part of the rosary, for example):
"Hail, Mary, full of grace
the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women, and
Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus"
Sounds familiar, because they are the exact words the angel spoke to Mary. It's simply a recitation of Scripture.
The second part:
"Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our deaths, amen."
Note that the prayer doesn't say "Mary, forgive our sins", "Mary, cover our sins" or "Mary, fill us with grace". It asks Mary to pray for us. The scripture says that "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." Whether or not one agrees that she was conceived without original sin or not, it is clear that she was regarded as uniquely blessed by God because of how she served Him and said yes to Him.
Same with saints. Catholics who pray TO Mary or saints for forgiveness for their sins are in error, similarly to Catholics who use birth control. They are unaware or untaught or simply choosing to be in error...that doesn't mean the Church teaches that that is what they should do.
It's worth looking into, Barbara, at seekers-type classes. There is so much misunderstanding about Mary and the saints because, in truth, Catholics don't always understand the real teaching on these things. It's also worth noting that some (not all) of the teachings about Mary are considered to be potentially fallible teachings. In other words, for some of the teachings on Mary, a discerning Catholic is not obligated to believe them, because that teaching was not handed down as an infallible statment from the Pope. It's worth knowing which teachings are which.
Not to muddy the issue, sorry! I respect your right not to publish this.
Posted by: Jill (colicmommy) | November 5, 2007 11:43 AM
Barbara,
May God bless you and yours abundantly!!!
Keep up the great work and witnessing Christ's love!
Posted by: Maureen :) | November 5, 2007 12:09 PM
Barbara:
I would definitely agree with you that the church is not as strong as it should be on pro-life issues because we do not accept children. What would an evangelical who chose to only have two children, a boy and a girl, have to say to a mother expecting her fourth and considering an abortion because no one has four children, it's crazy?
I believe that there are many Catholics who are Christian, but there are also many who are not, including, from what I hear, many priests. If Catholics are going to claim that the Pope is their authority, why are they ordaining priests that do not respect that authority?
Another thing that bothers me is what seems to be the extreme advocacy of NFP that the Catholic Church has. To me it seems less like they welcome children and more like they prevent children only in certain ways. NFP resources seem to talk on one hand about being open to life and on the other about how NFP is as effective as the pill. This does not sound like welcoming children and being open to life to me. I know that official church documents allow NFP only for child spacing and grave reasons, but without any guidelines child spacing could be ten years and grave reasons could be inability to afford a second car. To some extent it seems like trading "birth control is okay" for "NFP is okay" is just trading one heresy for another, though lesser, one. This is probably my biggest problem with the Catholic church.
The Mary thing and the saints thing have been brought up. The fact that priests cannot marry bothers me some. The idea that the gift of teaching or preaching must be paired with the gift of celibacy does not seem Biblical. I do not think that a hard-and-fast objection to the death penalty is necessarily the most pro-life position in all cases, nor do I think it is appropriate to compare taking the life of a child to taking the life of a violent killer; these are separate issues, which is why I sometimes say I am pro-fetal-rights. I am not trying to be argumentative, only to state what I object to in the Catholic position.
I am one of many Christians who was dismayed to realize that the birth control pill was an abortifacient, and in further research, came to question the rather recent decision by most American churches to change their stance from against birth control to for it. My husband and I are still in the church we were in before we realized this, the church he grew up in. It is a Baptist church, a rather conservative church in a rather conservative part of Massachusetts (for what that's worth). I don't know if I am a Baptist. We managed to put out Randy Alcorn's book "Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions?" on a table with other resources for those who want to read it, though it took many months. At this point, we feel like this is where God has planted us and we have as much a chance of changing our church into what we would want a church to be as we have of finding a church which already had our views. My brother-in-law and his wife, who do not share our convictions about birth control but have been searching for a church for several years, recently came back to the church we are now at. They haven't seen a church with lots of large families. The number of younger families in my church with more than three children could be counted on one hand. But at least there are some.
I don't know if it is helpful to anyone to read my experiences with this issue; hopefully it is.
Posted by: ycw | November 5, 2007 12:32 PM
I'm not out to convert anyone. The Holy Spirit does that. I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions. Unfortunately, I see some words being put in my mouth and in that of the Church. I could say more, correct more, provide more references, but I'm busy today, and ya'll are literate, so I'll direct you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (you can find it in bookstores and libraries everywhere.) I'm happy to try and answer specific *questions* about the Church (any other Catholics out there, feel free to chime in, and for Heaven's sake *please* correct me if I misspeak! The Pope has occasionally claimed infallibility, but I NEVER do :) I won't be fielding any more *statements* made here about the Church and its members. Best wishes to you Barbara, and thanks for giving the Catholic Church the benefit of the doubt! I look forward to hearing more from you and your readers on the subject.
Posted by: Marisa | November 5, 2007 12:52 PM
Barbara, I'm glad you are just at the inquirer's class stage. They have their official catechism, and hopefully they will utilize that and you can see things for yourself - the question and answer format is very clear and direct. It goes, for me, to "what is the basis of your salvation?" Any other errors I see flow from that.
Posted by: Marie | November 5, 2007 12:58 PM
Welcome, Barbara! It isn't (as I'm sure you know) always an easy journey, but is a joyful one! Blessings to you!
To those who are really struggling to understand some of those Catholic teachings, there is a lot more depth than can be explained in a short post. So I recommend reading "Theology for Beginners" by Frank Sheed. It is very clear, but very in-depth and can help make sense of some of those teachings, especially where Catholics and Protestants have the same terms, but different understandings of what they mean (like "Mother of God")
Posted by: Anna | November 5, 2007 1:32 PM
I'm a cradle Catholic but I've had somewhat the opposite experience. I'm in a very Liberal area and while most RC's call themselves pro-life they really are anti abortion. The Evangelicals I've met, mostly thru homeschooling, are decidely on the side of Life. Many choose birthcontrol but give all they can to Life support ministries.
As to Mary, I turn to her to pray for me. There is prayer and Prayer. I Pray directly to Christ and the Spirit and Our Father and Creator. I pray, (ora, Latin for speak) with Mary for the Church and all people. I ask her, as one who found favor with the Father and sits before His throne to Pray for me when I cannot.
When I ask my friend or husband to pray with or for me they may not pray for God's Will but reflect my own words and thoughts.
Mary always said Yes to God, pondered His Will or Praised Him. Those in Heaven who Pray before The Lamb cannot do so outside of God's will.
It is a great comfort to have been given her by Christ Himeslf. It has never led me away from God but always to "do whatever He tells" me.
Posted by: Mary | November 5, 2007 1:37 PM
I am another who was raised in a very devout Baptist family, yet found myself being led to the Catholic Church. I struggled with this decision mightily, as I had been raised to believe many of the misconceptions about the Catholic faith (a few of which have already been brought up here).
When Catholics ask the saints to intercede on their behalf, they do not believe that it is that particular saint's works or leftover grace that is saving them. I have searched my catechism, and I cannot find that stated anywhere. What I have found is that in article 169 it states that "Salvation comes from God alone, but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother. We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the church as if she were the author of our salvation."
We are saved by grace that comes from God and God alone, but He may choose to dispense this grace through any avenue he sees fit. The official Catholic line is this "We are saved by grace, through faith, and as a result feel compelled to do good works." That jives perfectly with scripture, in my opinion!
Posted by: Michele | November 5, 2007 1:51 PM
Barbara, I want to say congratulations and welcome! How wonderful that you and your husband have opened the door to learning about the Church and exploring your place in it.
Marie, we Catholics do not believe that the merit of someone other than Jesus can save us. We do, however, believe that saints can INTERCEDE for us--they can pray on our behalf--much as we pray on behalf of our friends, family members, even our enemies.
Posted by: Barb Szyszkiewicz, sfo | November 5, 2007 2:14 PM
HI Barbara,
I also would love to hear your response to Maree's comments/questions:
"I scratch my head, though, at how you can wrap your head around some of the other doctrines, for example, the Mary business. She was not immaculately conceived, she did not live a sinless life, and she does not have extra grace to dispense to us. Nor, for that matter, do the other fellow believers that have been declared "saints" whose excess virtue we can supposedly receive for our salvation. We should not be praying to them. They are sinners, like us, saved by Christ's merit, and no one else's.
It seems to me we can be 100% pro-life and yet avoid these doctrines which completely contradict the gospel. How do you reconcile these fundamental RC beliefs with Christianity"
The Gospel surely is all that is needed - the additional doctrines that are set out by the RC church are manmade.
The RC church is certainly to be commended for it's strong Pro-life stance (as are many Protestants!)but I'm not so sure about some of their beliefs.
I don't mean to offend anyone - I'm searching and interested in how this is viewed.
Barbara - I do so appreciate how you are so open and happy to discuss things on your blog.
Regards, Wilma
Posted by: wilm | November 5, 2007 2:30 PM
Hello Barbara, I know these recent comments have diverged a bit from your original post about your present journey of faith and pro-life issues to the topic of the Blessed Mother. I hope I can in some way help bridge that seeming divide.
There is no better example of the Christian cause for Life than Mary. It was this lowly Jewish girl who set her hope and faith in the Lord said “Yes” to receive from God the gift of the Son. In face of scorn, judgment, and the unknown she became the Mother of the Messiah. That’s the essence of being pro-life. Loving Life more than self.
Further, Mary, being blessed among all women, does indeed have a very special role in the Christian-wide occupation of dispensing grace. It is not “extra” grace which she dispenses, but just the measure God has entrusted to her. St. Peter encourages the flock: “As generous distributors of God’s manifold grace, put your gifts at the service of one another, each in the measure he has received.” (1 Peter 4:10) As Christians, we are ALL called to distribute grace, not just Mary. As the chosen Mother of the Savior, it would be prudent to contend (as has the Church for 2000 years), however, that Mary’s measure is considerable. And we have wonderful testaments from Scripture illustrating Mary’s willingness to use her gifts at the service of others.
This, I believe, is how we can join together as pro-life Christians under the mantle of our Blessed Mother. Like Mary with Elizabeth, we can serve the cause for Life as mothers, daughters, sisters, cousins, and friends who reach out to other women in charity and support, especially those who are facing difficulty in pregnancy and motherhood. Like Mary at Cana, can implore our Savior to assist the plight of those in need. Like Mary, throughout her Son’s earthly life, we can follow Him and constantly point others to Him through our example of love. And with our Blessed Mother at the foot of the Cross, we can be there to mourn the loss innocent life and hope for the promise of salvation for all those wounded by our culture of death.
This is the “Mary business” which authentically magnifies the greatness of God’s grace through her life and encourages us in ours.
Posted by: Fran | November 5, 2007 2:43 PM
Thanks to several of you who have said things more clearly, more eloquently, and more completely than I have here. Thanks to those of you who are raising some very good questions about the Catholic Church. I am really learning, and thinking, a lot! :)
Posted by: Marisa | November 5, 2007 7:57 PM
I'm not sure how much Catholic Q and A you want on this thread, but for those who have questions about Catholic doctrine, I wanted to point you to http://www.scripturecatholic.com/ as a very comprehensive site noting the scriptural basis for Catholic beliefs.
Also, there is a searchable Catholic Catechism online here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm. Go ahead, type in "idolatry" or "one mediator" or "scripture" and see what it says. I can guarantee that it will clear up much misinformation!
God bless you on your journey . . .
Posted by: Kelly | November 5, 2007 9:14 PM
Hello Barbara,
First, I want to say thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Talking about the divide within the Christian world is risky business even when everyone in the discussion begins from a place of love and respect. Next, I want to say that I am praying for you and your family. The Catholic Church is a complicated family, but I hope you all feel welcome and appreciated.
In addition to the message I wanted to leave for you, I would like to add this comment:
I urge everyone reading to consider that every institution is flawed and every thing man impacts is imperfect, but God uses the small and the weak first. Reading some of the criticisms of Catholicism have really hurt me. I feel like the comments made are harsh distortions of what I know to be at my core. I suppose that if I was not part of the Catholic community, I would view some of the traditions Jesus began that still exist in The Church as strange or uncomfortable. After trying on a nondenominational church and two Baptist churches in college, I felt that something was missing in my heart. What was missing, for me, was the interaction I know I have had with Christ through the Eucharist. Sometimes we are called to embrace more than what we are comfortable with. Sometimes we have to take the leap and give Christ the space to work in our lives, in our understandings.
And, my final thought: Recently, I began reading Christopher West's Theology of the Body Explained. Pope John Paul's message about human dignity and love, rooted in the creation of men and women, has moved me to tears and to intensely deep prayer and thought. As a teacher, I am biased, but I feel that we can only benefit from continued education. Barbara, God bless you as you continue your faith journey!
Respectfully,
Elizabeth
Posted by: Elizabeth | November 5, 2007 9:47 PM
What a nice, civil conversation. I want to chime in here, with respect and kindness to our Roman Catholic friends.
What I am going to say is not meant to be inflammatory, but to state what I understand as the Protestant take on the question asked by Milehimama's: "How could Christ ever reside in a temple that was under the dominion of the Adversary (through sin)?" I am not attacking anyone personally, just wanting to add to the conversation here. Plus, I am not a scholar…just a sinner trying to comprehend the amazing things that Christ has done for me in His life, death, resurrection, and ascension to the right hand of the Father.
First, I’d like to take a little diversion here to early church history: The idea that all things material (like human flesh) are evil is an philosophy called gnosticism. Gnostics further believe that the material, being evil, cannot co-exist with spirit, which is good. Therefore, Christ could not have really been fully man and fully God...those two natures could not co-exist. So, they reasoned that Jesus only "seemed" to be fully man. This thinking was actually condemned as heretical by the early church at several councils, the most important one being Chalcedon in 451, which is still recognized today as a valid council by both Roman Catholics and Protestants.
Fast forward to the statement above that Christ could not dwell in a human "temple" because of its sin nature. This seems to be to be going in that same direction of making what the early church fathers determined to be an unscriptural distinction between flesh and spirit.
The point is, Christ DID take on human flesh...He WAS born into a sinful, miserable, hopeless world. He did inhabit the womb of a woman, born under the curse. "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law." (Galatians 4:4-5) Jesus was fully God, and He was fully man, born of a woman who was under the Law, and under the curse.
He did this so that He could take on the curse of God for sin on our behalf by being the perfect man...the perfect lawkeeper (and that includes on Mary's behalf...for she herself called Him her Savior in the Magnificat…and only a sinner needs a savior.) "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us..." (Galatians 3:13)
But before this all gets too far off the main point of Barbara's topic here, I do want to put in a plea that in your study, Barbara, you and Tripp will seriously consider a thorough study of church history. I completely understand your disillusionment with evangelicalism. I have an idea that we also share a common love for the liturgy, which also probably attracts you to Rome.
The bottom line is, where is our justification? Is it in Christ alone, by faith alone, through grace alone, according to the Scriptures alone? Or does it stand or fall on our cooperation with God’s grace and Christ’s sacrifice? The first is very good news for sinners. The second is not, because we can never be sure that we have cooperated enough.
Our pastor preached a wonderful sermon on this exact doctrine last Sunday. I’ll be happy to forward you a copy if you like, Barbara. I'd love to talk to you about this...call me! :)
Posted by: Kathy | November 5, 2007 9:57 PM
my prayers are with you and your family on your journey to the Catholic Church!
I come from time to time to your blog thru Danielle Bean's site.
You and your family are such great inspiration to my family and friends, God bless you all!
Pax in JMJ!
Posted by: MM | November 5, 2007 10:53 PM
I think you are from D.C.
May I recommend visiting the National Shrine of Mary
Basilica it's very beautiful.
Just suggesting it to you since you are discerning about Catholicism.
you dont have to post this on the comments, I didnt find (lazy) to email you personally =P
Posted by: MM | November 5, 2007 11:00 PM
mmmmmmmmmm.......I don't even know where to begin......really, there is too much I like to say.
I feel I must start by saying that the "welcome home" comments have left a rather bitter taste in my mouth. "welcome home"????? Why? Has she been "away" from home all this time???
Does that refers to the teaching that the ONLY Church is THE Catholic Church and that we can ONLY be saved thru it???????
Let us not forget that God doesn't recognize any Church, any group, any denomination or religion; the ONLY thing He recognizes is the BLOOD OF THE LAMB.........nothing else, nothing more.
Barbara hasn't been "away" from home; she has been at "home", she is just considering changing "rooms".
Now, I would like to share what I have seen from the outside in regards to the "teaching" of the Church and the "practice" of the Church.
I grew up in rural Mexico in a small town where 95 % of the population were Catholics.
I have seen them set up altars for Mary (or I should say "Virgin the Guadalupe, which Mexicans view as the mother of God.....so I'm confused, which one is it, Mary or Guadalupe????), pay sacrifices to Mary, light up candles for Mary, have a full blown party at her "birthday" and everything else you can possibly imagine; I have seen people travel for months, by foot, just to pay a promise to her for a given miracle; when they pray for a miracle, I have never heard them pray to God or Jesus, they pray to Mary for miracles; they bless Mary, they pray to Mary, they adore Mary; they are devouts of Mary......all of this with the full consent and encouragement from the leaders of the Church.
I just don't understand.
Wouldn't that be considered idolatry, according to the Ten Commandments?
And I will apologize in advance to all the people that will be offended by my next comment, but, I see a double standard with the fact that the Church is defending the sanctity of life while at the same time defending so many pedophiles within their ranks. I just don't get that at all. And believe me, what we hear of in the news is the tiniest tip of the iceberg, it is much more worse that we could ever imagine and it is a global thing, but many poor people can not afford to hire lawyers to prosecute the priests so many things go unheard of.
Just a few months ago abortion and gay civil unions were legalized in the Distrito Federal and the Church was unable to do anything about it; the message the public sent the Catholic church was clear: "first go and clean you own house then come and try to clean the government".
Also, in many southern Mexican states, evangelicals suffer from persecution by the catholic church; people are thrown in jail for walking around with a Bible; we have sent Bibles to that area, just to have them being removed by the Church and the evangelicals thrown in jail or charged huge amounts of money in fines; we know pastors who have been preaching out of hymnals for years because they can't keep a Bible for more that a few days. Distributing literature (tracts and the sort) is almost impossible due to the heavy persecution.
I don't know; there are many things I see wrong; even in the previous comments, everybody is so busy trying to defend Mary and, if I'm not mistaken, nobody has boldly declare that the ONLY way to salvation is Jesus Christ and His Blood.
Too much attention placed in Mary.
Dearest Barbara: I love you and admire you regardless of where you go. I know you are in the Father's hands and He will guide you. As long as you let His Word be a lamp unto your feet you will end up where He wants you to be, regardless of the name of the religion or denomination.
One thing is clear to me thru this post and the comments: the Church as a whole is divided, very divided; all of us who claim to be sons and daughters of God thru the sacrifice of Jesus, have created a very divided family.
In the end, Satan's strategy has worked well "divide and conquer".
..................................I apologize to all who read this message and were offended or put off by it. I just had to stop and pray and take a moment to ponder my last words, "divide and conquer". We cannot allow that to happen.
After all, regardless of the many differences in doctrine, one thing must remain: If we believe in God, if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for our sins, that He rose again and that He sits a the right hand of the Father and He has prepared a place for us; if we believe that He is the only way to the Father...then we are standing together at the foot of the cross and we will see each other at the Throne.
Until then,
May He bless you richly.
Posted by: LadyLovas | November 5, 2007 11:09 PM
Dear Fran,
It is statements such as:
"There is no better example of the Christian cause for Life than Mary" that disturb me.
I say, "There is no better example of the Christian cause for life than Jesus." I am just afraid with all these extra intercessors and heads of the church and sinless folk, Jesus is usurped.
Others have recommended various books - I'll recommend "Roman Catholicism," by Loraine Boettner. It is scholarly, calm in tone, readable, accessible, and very well researched.
Posted by: Marie | November 5, 2007 11:34 PM
Barbara,
Evangelicals may have let you down but don't put your Bible away.
"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men,the Man Christ Jesus. " 1 Timothy 2:5
"Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Proverbs 30:6
A deeper more meaningful relationship with Christ is found in His Word. Not in religion.
With love and in Christ alone,
Jenifer
Posted by: Jenifer | November 6, 2007 12:31 AM
"There is no better example of the Christian cause for Life than Mary" that disturb me.
But Maria, you didn't read the rest of the quote!
"It was this lowly Jewish girl who set her hope and faith in the Lord said “Yes” to receive from God the gift of the Son. In face of scorn, judgment, and the unknown she became the Mother of the Messiah. That’s the essence of being pro-life. Loving Life more than self."
Mary is the very epitome of selfless self giving. And that is why Catholics honor her.
There's a reason Boettner's book is known as the anti-Catholic source book Maria. If you want to know the truth about what the church teaches and believes it will only be distorted there.
Posted by: Elena | November 6, 2007 8:55 AM
I am not as eloquent as some of you who are posting, but I did want to throw in my two cents. I was raised Southern Baptist. My dad was a deacon and my mom was the church secretary for over 20 years. I taught Sunday School and even sang in the choir. I was "saved" and then baptized at a young age and rededicated my life on several occasions. YET - there was something missing in my life all those years. I knew it, but could not explain it. I studied scripture. I prayed. I talked with numerous people. I found what I was searching for in the Catholic Church. I found Jesus my Savior there. It is HOME. It is where I belong and I thank the good Lord everyday that I found my way home.
Someone mentioned the pedophiles in the Catholic Church. It is sad that it has happened and I pray for the victims. However, it is not just limited to the Catholic Church. I know of two Baptist ministers in my little corner of the world who were arrested for the same thing. My family moved often when I was growing up (Dad worked in the oil fields.) We always attended church wherever we lived - One of the married ministers we had left the pulpit because he had an affair with a married woman in our church. One was caught in a prostitution sting in a neighboring city - he was allowed to keep preaching. It is sad to say, but it is a disease that has infected many denominations. None of it is justifiable. None of it should be swept under the rug. On the other hand - the majority of church leaders (Catholic and Protestant) I have come in contact with in my life have been very devout, sincere people. I guess what I am trying to say is that it saddens me that some misguided people think that the Catholic church is full of perverted, sick priests. That is not the case. The vast majority are good, Christian men - just as the majority of Protestant ministers are good, decent people.
Posted by: Cris | November 6, 2007 9:58 AM
I see that Boettner's book "Roman Catholicism" was mentioned - I was recommended this as well when I was converting. My advice is that if you read this, read it with a Catholic catechism by your side. Several of her quotes from the catechism were paraphrased. I found that often these paraphrases literally altered the entire meaning of the quote. I am not saying don't read it - just double check her quotes. Some are flat out wrong.
The trouble I had when I was converting was that some Protestants were telling me what Catholics "really taught", but when I looked it up for myself in scripture and in the Catholic catechism, I found that many of these well meaning Protestants were as misinformed on Catholic teaching as I was. And there are a lot of Catholics out there who are as well. A lot of the differences lie in the definitions. Protestants and Catholics use the same terms, but define them differently.
Take praying to the saints. As a Protestant, I equated prayer with worship. So praying to a saint = worshiping a saint = idolatry. But when Catholics ask Mary to pray for them, it is no different than me going up to my Dad and saying "hey Dad, I am having a rough time, can you pray for me". Can I pray straight to God? Absolutely, and I should without a doubt! But what is wrong with storming heaven for a request? Especially when your prayer warrior is already in Heaven with God.
Now, I know that they are dead, but where in the Bible does it say that those who have died are now cut off from the rest of the Christian community? It doesn't. Do the saints save us? No, but they can pray for us.
Posted by: Michele | November 6, 2007 10:07 AM
Well, you knew you were going to get a lot of flak!
I don't want to get into debates about who's doing what bad thing or this or that theological point. You'll think about these things and reason them out as you go.
All I will say is, I love being Catholic. Love it! There is such an abundant treasure here of thought, practice, and inspiration. It is a joy in good times and a comfort in bad.
You're a gutsy lady. All the best to you and your family! For the rest of us, let's pray that we will all be home and safe with the joy of God in the end. God bless us, every one!
Posted by: Claire | November 6, 2007 11:20 AM
Lorraine Boettner is a man.
My parents converted to RC last year. I don't agree with them, but I have come to understand that there are many of God's children in that church.
Blessings!
Posted by: Zan | November 6, 2007 11:44 AM
Marie,
Peace in Christ.
Thank you for your book recommendation. I have read Boettner’s
Roman Catholicism
. While I disagree that his is a particularly scholarly work, as do many contemporary Protestant theologians, I realize that his work is very prolific in sustaining a certain bias against the Catholic Church. I would encourage you, in turn, to balance your reading of Boettner with a book like Karl Keating’s
Catholicism and Fundamentalism
alongside
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
. Unfortunately, what many take for granted as truth in Boettner’s book has been proven fabricated and false in these many years since its first publication.
I understand the visceral response you had to my statement: “There is no better example of the Christian cause for Life than Mary." However, I would ask that you examine my meaning within its context. Jesus is God. He is the Savior. He is the Christ. Mary is his Blessed Mother. She is a creature. She is a Christian. Thus, my statement about her being a superlative example of Christianity stands. I did not put her on par with her Son. Instead, I pointed to her submission, devotion, and obedience as perfect examples of how we, as Christians, can respond to the grace God has measured out to each of us to forward the Christian cause for Life.
Do not be afraid, no one. . . not one human being, prince, or principality. . .can “usurp” the power and sovereignty of the Almighty God. There are no “extra intercessors.” As Christians, we are all called by grace to be powerfully prayerful intercessors before God. After all, those of us united with Christ are, as St. Paul instructs, His fellow workers. We, like the Blessed Mother, have been given a special purpose in Christ’s Body. We intercede, with the Blessed Mother and the saints, because we are a holy priesthood in our Lord Jesus Christ.
And on the topic of “sinless folk”. . .At any given moment, as believers, we are all presented with gift and challenge of grace in the face of sin. When any of us resist temptation, it does nothing to usurp Jesus’ power, but rather shows forth His glory in abundance. Throughout Christianity, it has been our tradition to honor the Blessed Mother for the glorious work God has accomplished in preserving her from sin and protecting her as a tabernacle of the Word made Flesh.
Posted by: Fran | November 6, 2007 12:09 PM
Barbara:
God bless you!
Aside from everyone else is recommending, I would highly recommend reading some of Pope Benedict XVI's writings. Not the big theological tomes, but simply keep up with the homilies he preaches on special occasions and his General Audience talks, which are given every Wednesday. The Pope is one of the greatest theologians of the latter part of the 20th century, and has a profound pastoral sense. A couple of links to some recent winners:This, for example, is a homily preached a couple of months ago at, as it happens, a Marian shrine. A portion:
The Gospel passage we have just heard broadens our view. It presents the history of Israel from Abraham onwards as a pilgrimage, which, with its ups and downs, its paths and detours, leads us finally to Christ. The genealogy with its light and dark figures, its successes and failures, shows us that God can write straight even on the crooked lines of our history. God allows us our freedom, and yet in our failures he can always find new paths for his love. God does not fail. Hence this genealogy is a guarantee of God’s faithfulness; a guarantee that God does not allow us to fall, and an invitation to direct our lives ever anew towards him, to walk ever anew towards Jesus Christ.
Making a pilgrimage means setting out in a particular direction, traveling towards a destination. This gives a beauty of its own even to the journey and to the effort involved. Among the pilgrims of Jesus’s genealogy there were many who forgot the goal and wanted to make themselves the goal. Again and again, though, the Lord called forth people whose longing for the goal drove them forward, people who directed their whole lives towards it. The awakening of the Christian faith, the dawning of the Church of Jesus Christ was made possible, because there were people in Israel whose hearts were searching – people who did not rest content with custom, but who looked further ahead, in search of something greater: Zechariah, Elizabeth, Simeon, Anna, Mary and Joseph, the Twelve and many others. Because their hearts were expectant, they were able to recognize in Jesus the one whom God had sent, and thus they could become the beginning of his worldwide family. The Church of the Gentiles was made possible, because both in the Mediterranean area and in those parts of Asia to which the messengers of Jesus traveled, there were expectant people who were not satisfied by what everyone around them was doing and thinking, but who were seeking the star which could show them the way towards Truth itself, towards the living God.
We too need an open and restless heart like theirs. This is what pilgrimage is all about. Today as in the past, it is not enough to be more or less like everyone else and to think like everyone else. Our lives have a deeper purpose. We need God, the God who has shown us his face and opened his heart to us: Jesus Christ.
Then an Easter Homily:
This is the joy of the Easter Vigil: we are free. In the resurrection of Jesus, love has been shown to be stronger than death, stronger than evil. Love made Christ descend, and love is also the power by which he ascends. The power by which he brings us with him. In union with his love, borne aloft on the wings of love, as persons of love, let us descend with him into the world’s darkness, knowing that in this way we will also rise up with him. On this night, then, let us pray: Lord, show us that love is stronger than hatred, that love is stronger than death. Descend into the darkness and the abyss of our modern age, and take by the hand those who await you. Bring them to the light! In my own dark nights, be with me to bring me forth! Help me, help all of us, to descend with you into the darkness of all those people who are still waiting for you, who out of the depths cry unto you! Help us to bring them your light! Help us to say the “yes” of love, the love that makes us descend with you and, in so doing, also to rise with you. Amen!
No, Catholicism isn't Christ-centered. Not at all.
Look - what a religion is in its essence and core can easily be skewed. Let me give you an example. When I look at modern American Protestantism, this is what I see on the evangelical end (what I see on the mainstream/liberal end is a completely different story...):
*I see a landscape which is dominated by personalities - from Osteen to Joyce Meyer to Rick Warren and the scores and scores of with it/cool/up and coming megachurch and emergent pastors teaming below them. I see it everywhere - and what it says to me is...mediators. Between me and Christ. Personalities interpreting Scripture for me, Personalities giving me a reason to come to church, Personalities dominating the landscape, their faces smiling out at me from everywhere in the Christian world...but not the face of Christ.
*In Protestant Church services, I see...human beings as the center. The service dying or rising on the skills of the preachers and musicians. Church "marketing" becoming a huge element in Protestantism, a "marketing" that usually means advertising how edgy/cool/relevant the human beings who form the leadership of our church are.
The point?
Much of what Protestants decry in Catholicism actually exists in their very own bodies. There is massive kowtowing to the culture, there is a fascination with other human beings as ideal embodiments of Christianity, etc. Not to speak of the very intense human-centered discussions between devotees of Calvin, of Wesley, of Luther...all of whom formulate their theologies around a human being's particular interpretation of Scripture.
And just two other points, offered in love.
The accusation is made that Catholicism is not "Biblical." It would be great if we could compare what the Bible says about say, Baptism (as regenerative) and Eucharist (as, you know, the Body and Blood of Christ) and then really think hard as to what current expressions of Christianity are closest to what the Bible actually teaches about these things.
And then read John 6...particularly v. 66. Food for thought.
God bless, Barbara. I'm glad you encountered Regina Doman. Very glad.
Posted by: Elaine | November 6, 2007 4:12 PM
I recommend to anyone wanting to know the truth about Catholic teachings to read the Catechism instead of second-hand information. Then to read the rebuttals to Lorainne Boettner's ridiculous claims, read Karl Keating's book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism.
Posted by: Tatiana | November 6, 2007 5:33 PM
What a lovely and civil discussion.
Kathy suggests studying church history. This might be risky- for some of us, that's exactly how we wound up in the Catholic Church. Nothing else fit the facts to a degree our minds would let us accept.
I'm not trying to be facetious, but the impression our Evangelical friends sometimes give us when it comes to history is something like this:
33 A.D.- mid 4th Century: the Early Church, like in the Bible
Mid-4th Century: Constantine makes Christianity the state religion and messes everything up and/or 'invents' the Catholic Church
400's - 1515: 1100 years in which nothing much good happens, church-wise
1515- present: Martin Luther and the Reformation fix things for everybody, except for those recalcitrant Catholics
OTOH, Catholics have every year of the above covered. And not just if you read Catholic sources- you can look it up in, say, the Encyclopedia Britannica.
We don't have to account for a 1100 year gap with far-fetched and unsubstantiated theories about peasants secretly copying Bibles by rush-light after a back-breaking day in the liege's fields. We don't need that- we've got the facts recorded as they happened.
Some of it doesn't make very edifying reading and we wish those chapters hadn't happened, but the actions of some don't negate the truth of the Whole.
So, if you're already a committed Christian, it just may come down to who's telling the likelier story. For a lot of us, that was the Catholic Church.
Posted by: Sal | November 6, 2007 5:43 PM
Dear Barbara,
God bless you and your family. Thank you for all you do to protect and promote life! Enjoy your journey and "Be Not Afraid!"
Posted by: Maggie | November 6, 2007 9:23 PM
Barbara, God Bless you and your family and for being such a strong pro-life witness. I will be praying for you on your faith journey.
Posted by: KatieButler | November 6, 2007 9:38 PM
Barbara, God bless you and guide you on your journey.
I just wanted to comment on something I don't think anyone has really pointed out yet: Catholics believe both that Christ is indeed His mother's savior AND that Mary was conceived without sin. Because Christ is truly God, His sacrifice on the cross is an eternal act (meaning existing independent of time, NOT meaning an act that continues indefinitely); the effects of this act can be applied according to His will. In order for Mary to impart to Christ a human nature unstained by original sin, she had to be sinless herself, and so God willed that she be PRESERVED from original sin through the sacrifice of the Son she would bear. This is very mysterious, as eternity is when viewed through a human lens. But, here is an analogy that helps me sometimes: if a child is about to trip and fall down, there are two ways to save him, catch him before he hits the ground, or guide him away from the rock that will trip him. Christ saves us in the former way; He saved Mary, His Blessed Mother, in the latter way. I know this is confusing theologically, but I hope it helps somewhat. And any Catholics out there who are better theologians that I am, please correct me if I err in anything!
As Catholics, we do in fact believe that Christ is our personal Lord and Savior (and that He is Mary's as well). The pinnacle of this relationship, for us, is the Eucharist, where we receive Him fully under the appearance of bread and wine.
Posted by: Elizabeth | November 7, 2007 12:02 AM
I agree. There are those on both sides of the conservative side of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant, who need to begin reading the Bible for themselves. They need to apply what the Holy Spirit reveals to them. They need to teach those truths to their children. We need to be careful, lest in our zest, we offend our brothers. Look, Paul dealt with this. Some were saying they followed Paul's teachings, some said they followed Apollo's teachings, and some said they only followed Christ. Let's face it. Both sides can be wrong. We are not perfect believers. We are all sinners saved by the grace and mercy of God through Jesus Christ. Our church fathers were not perfect either. But we can learn from their failures as well as their mistakes. The Reformation did not and should not end with the splitting into all the different denominations we have today. Instead we should continue their work. We should all be re-forming our lives to be images of Christ Jesus. That means we in Protestant churches need to be re-forming our thoughts, methods, etc. to match the Bible and not the world. That probably means those in the Catholic church need to be doing the same. So we don't all like to worship just the same. OK. But in re-forming ourselves to Christ, wouldn't our messages begin to become mirror images of Him and then each other. Then we really would be united in one church body, no matter what building, tent, home, sky, you met under! No matter if you sit, stand or kneel to pray. No matter if you prefer liturgy or the same "Call to Worship" Sunday after Sunday. Then we would see true reform in our world. For Jesus said "by this will all men know that you are My disciples if you have love one for another."
So Barbara and Tripp are exploring what God wants for them. He wants them to continue His re-forming of His people, whether that is within the Protestant realm or the Catholic realm, it is not ours to decide. Remember we all pray for His kingdom to come and His will to be done!
I'm sorry if this sounds too harsh. But even in all the kind discussion happening here, I felt that we were missing the bigger picture! Please forgive any offense. It was not meant!
Posted by: Sara | November 7, 2007 9:36 AM
You will be in the prayers of my wife and I. Thanks for sharing your journey. As a cradle Catholic, I admire my wife and the many sincere converts the Lord has led into my life.
I pray you may be one of them.
Posted by: JimmyV | November 7, 2007 2:51 PM
Sara, thanks for your thoughts on church history. You are right, many people do become Roman Catholic when they study church history…but I believe that is because they miss the bigger picture. Yes, the true church is catholic (that little “c” is VERY important, please do not mistake my meaning!). We confess in the Nicene Creed that we believe in one holy, catholic (little "c"!), and apostolic church. Many people do not understand the terms…catholic means universal, from the Greek and Latin terms.
The true or "catholic" chuch has always existed. Protestants recognize a distinction between the visible and invisible church. The visible church is made up of church members and those who seem to be Christians by outward appearances.
But not all of those are the true, or invisible church. The invisible church is made up of only those who are saved by God through the finished work of Christ. Because of this distinction, there have always been believers, and God has been advancing his kingdom ever since the beginning of time, both inside and outside of the Roman Catholic Church. There are no periods in post-biblical history when the catholic (little “c”!) church has not existed.
But we do not believe that the catholic church and the Roman Catholic church are the same thing. The catholic church is the invisible church, made up of ALL true believers, regardless of denomination.
Obviously, Protestants believe that the Roman Catholic church has seriously erred in its doctrine. But even during the reformation, Luther and Calvin both still considered themselves Roman Catholic for a very long time. They were not looking to break with the church, but to re-form it…hence the name…Re-formation.
Anyway, this is a huge subject, and it's impossible to do it justice in this forum. I have learned so very much from a church history class which used Philip Schaff’s 8 volume work on the history of the church (available at CBD), and from my church’s excellent Sunday School class on the same subject. You can go here to see my pastor’s outlines: http://www.monergism.com/ancient_church_history_by_rev.php
Thanks for this interesting and stimulating discussion! It is always good to be sharpened, and as Sarah said, continually be “reforming” our doctrine to Scripture.
The peace of the Lord be with you,
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy in VA | November 7, 2007 5:14 PM
Barbara,
We're excited to read your blog, and we will say a special prayer for you tonight. May Christ lead you and your family into the fullness of truth. The Catholic faith is so amazing - a complete gift from the Lord. What a blessing that he is calling you towards it in its fullness.
Please continue the pro-life work...your family is already such a wonderful witness.
Have you heard about 40 days for life?
Posted by: Matthew and Lucy Coles | November 7, 2007 9:06 PM
WOW.
A friend sent me the link to this post and WOW.
Can I admit something...? (Is it safe)? *looks around warily* LOL...
I am deeply drawn to both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches in so many ways...and have close friends that eventually joined both (having been raised Protestants) and seem VERY happy.
And, IMPORTANT:
I have to agree with many of the commenters and say that MAKE SURE YOU GO TO THE SOURCE to find out what the Catholic church *really* believes.
What the Protestant books *say* Catholics believe (about praying to the saints, for example) and what the Roman Catholic Church actually *teach* are often two totally separate things.
Please be warned: Protestant teaching about Catholicism is usually heavily biased and full of gross misrepresentations, misunderstandings, and sometimes flat out lies.
If you read the *actual* RC teachings and end up disagreeing, well, fine. At least then you are disagreeing with the actual teachings, though, as opposed to misrepresented ones. :)
Btw, Barbara, I'm "Molly formerly of Choosing Home" (remember me? lol) and just wanted to add that I'm having a mommy group over to my house and we are (drum roll, please) going through your book, The Mommy Manual (one chapter a week). The gals seem pretty excited about it and I'm excited to host.
I've been thinking about you, so this gives me the chance to spit it out: Thank you for such an awesome book, and for helping me grow as a mom (of 5) through it. And, of course, I share all this to say that when it's time to amend your book (lol), I think the only improvement that it needs is some discussion questions in the back of the book for groups, because the Mommy Manual is SUCH a wonderful "Mom Group" resource.
Lots of Love (and I'm admittedly also excited and even a wee bit jealous of your new journey into the RC)...
Molly
Posted by: molly | November 8, 2007 1:22 AM
Quick comment to ponder?
Where did the Bible come from?
I believe that it was from the deliberation and workings of the early Church fathers (ie, believers and followers in Christ's true Church, which he founded, and which remains today as the Catholic Church). Unfortunately, many Protestants accept the words of Scripture, but have no idea WHERE the book actually comes from. As John Henry Cardinal Newman stated: "To look at History is to cease to be Protestant." Let's go back to the basics: where did we get Holy Scripture?
Posted by: Catholic and Love it! | November 8, 2007 1:03 PM
Welcome! The Church is a mother who throws open her arms and cherishes her children. Take refuge in her maternal care.I'm praying for you!
Posted by: Elizabeth Foss | November 8, 2007 8:07 PM
Welcome!
For those who are already Christians, their baptism itself forms a certain sacramental relationship with the Church (cf. Vatican II, Unitatis Redintegratio 3; Catechism of the Catholic Church 1271). They are also joined to the Church by their intention to enter it, as are the unbaptized who intend to do so: "Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, desire with an explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined to her. With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own" (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14:3; CCC 1249).
Posted by: Meredith from Merchant Ships | November 8, 2007 9:18 PM
Let me add a voice to the chorus welcoming you and your family home to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!
Honestly, I was surprised, after reading a few of your posts a while back, to learn that you were not already Catholic. I agree with the commenter above who said your posts had a Catholic tone to them.
Please don't let yourself be discouraged by all the naysayers. Jesus told Pope St. Peter that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church. Trust in that always.
I came into the Church at the Easter Vigil before last, to the protestations of my whole family and all of my oldest friends. What I found was the support of an amazing family that spans the whole world for the last 2,000 years. My parish community is amazing and close-knit, and I thank God for them. More important, though, than that local group is the camaraderie of the entire Church, Militant, Suffering, and (best of all) Triumphant.
Once again, welcome to the family!
Posted by: Layla | November 8, 2007 11:01 PM
Barbara and family:
Prayers for you on this journey!
Posted by: SuzannG | November 8, 2007 11:39 PM
Since so many questions have been posed to Catholics, I have a few for my Protestant brethren:
*If you are to argue that everything we believe in regards to faith must come from the Bible shouldn't that belief itself be in there? I challenge you to find it. Obviously it isn't there. Christ instructed the Apostles to go forth and TELL people about him, not write a book about him.
*Did you know Martin Luther was first a Catholic monk? Since the re-former himself was Catholic, Catholicism obvioulsy was around before Protestantism (which didn't come about until the 1500's). Now, the Bible says upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it. While there may have been corruption or inconsistencies with PEOPLE in the Church, the Church itself (according to the Bible) could never fall away.
*As someone stated, don't put your Bible away! Unfortunately I think they meant it in a manner saying to not convert. They probably don't know if one were to attend daily Mass for 3 years the ENTIRE Bible would be read to them. Every Sunday during services Catholics read from the OT, NT, Psalms AND the Gospels. SO certainly, if you convert DO NOT put your Bible away. True, you will no longer be required to memorize certain passages, but you will probably read THE WHOLE BOOK now more than ever!
*A Protestant friend once said to me that there is no right and wrong when discussing the Bible. According to her faith the Bible is what you, through prayerful consideration, make of it. If that is true Protestant belief (ie: there is no authority) then how can one argue against what any other religion believes? Your own congregation may disagree about the very same scripture verse since there is no authority.
*Most Protestant problems start and end with Mary. My only statement on that is if you are saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for Roman Catholic belief about Mary to be true, you are saying something is impossible for God to achieve. I am pretty sure that all Christian faiths agree that God is all-powerful.
*As for the Church and NFP. True Church teaching is to be open to life ALWAYS. It allows NFP realizing that situations are different and for very legitimate reasons couples may have to try to avoid getting pregnant. In those instances NFP is allowed, but it is to be avoided otherwise.
*And finally (whew) in terms of works simply read James. From Protestant apologists I have heard James is a controversial book. Ahhh, but it is in the Bible, so you can't simply disregard it because it challenges your beliefs.
Catholicism, and any other religion for that matter, cannot and should not be judged simply by the people within the Church. As someone once said (sorry, I can't remember who) most people hate the Catholic Church over what they THINK it is, not what it truly is.
Barbara, best of luck to you on your faith journey. May you prayerfully consider and have the courage to choose whichever path Christ leads you on! And thank you for your pro-life work!
Posted by: Regina | November 9, 2007 1:32 AM
Barbara,
I am glad you have decided to share your faith journey with all of us. Thanks for being so open to God's work in your life...and I look forward to praying for you and your family as you continue to learn and discern.
Nancy
Posted by: NancyP | November 9, 2007 6:50 AM
Regina,
I think you are looking for this quote:
"There are only a handful of Americans who hate the Catholic Church, though there are millions who hate what they THINK the Church is." (Fulton Sheen) I had a difficult time searching for the quote, and I am at a time disadvantage right now -- I hope this is accurate!
God bless your journey, Barbara.
Posted by: Michele | November 9, 2007 7:31 AM
Welcome! Our prayers are with you!
Posted by: Suzanne Temple | November 9, 2007 8:40 AM
Barbara, Welcome! May your journey home be a happy one! Our prayers are with you.
Posted by: Suzanne Temple | November 9, 2007 8:58 AM
Welcome, Barbara, to you and your family! Your intentions will be in our family rosary today.
Posted by: Lisa | November 9, 2007 10:53 AM
Barbara, I'm here from Elizabeth's blog. Praying for you and your journey. May it continue to be a blessed one.
Posted by: stef | November 9, 2007 11:11 AM
Wow Barbara! What a tremendous year for you.Thank you for your pro-life, pro-family witness. It takes courage in this day and age. I have always enjoyed reading your blog. We are a Tridentine Catholic family and will now also pray for your family's discernment and studies. God bless, from another Montessori mom. : )
Posted by: Kim | November 9, 2007 12:46 PM
Michele,
Yes,that is the quote. I thought it was Fulton Sheen but couldn't exactly remember--I didn't even think to google it. Thank you for doing my research for me :).
Regina
Posted by: Regina | November 9, 2007 12:47 PM
Welcome home! The journey might not be easy but it is full of blessings and graces. Christ's peace to you as you discern, pray and learn more about His Church. Warmly, Margaret
sorry if this posts 2x - whoops! :)
Posted by: Margaret | November 9, 2007 1:09 PM
WELCOME HOME TO THE CHURCH BARBARA!!!! I am so excited for you!! My prayers are with you as your journey home...may God bless you abundantly in your quest for Truth.
Just a P.S. to the person who commented on NFP and birth control…I do not mean to be uncharitable, but, I would kindly suggest that you look into the issue more. There is a vital difference between the two that you failed to mention. While contraception is focused on self pleasure, NFP focuses on building up and appreciation of God’s gifts to us. Here are a three links that you may find helpful:
http://ccli.org/nfp/index.php
http://ccli.org/nfp/contraception/NFPvsContraception.php
http://ccli.org/nfp/marriage/index.php
Posted by: veronica | November 9, 2007 1:18 PM
Barbara,
Thank you, in your courage, for all that you've done for the cause of Life, and thank you for sharing your faith journey with us, as I'm sure the Spirit is working through you to touch many. You are in my prayers. Also, I'd like to ask my Protestant brothers and sisters, is it not in God's power to preserve Mary from sin before her conception? Also, there have been references to Church councils above. If you study Church history, you'll find that most of the "inventions" Protestants have trouble with came about from these councils seeking to clarify church teaching and end dissent. Read Church history! It's exciting!
Posted by: Silvia | November 9, 2007 1:34 PM
I think you will make a good catholic if you do consider to continue on that route.
My recommendation is that you read the entire Catholic Catechism, and then go through and read the entire New Testament from the Catholic perspective. When I did this, I found that the entire Bible made so much more sense within this context. I converted in 2000. Even though I have had my issues with catholicism I have sincerely prayed to know truth and thus far I have consistently been led to stay Catholic.
About Mary...She is the Ark of the New Covenant. Read the wikipedia entry for a brief synopsis of this doctrine.
Posted by: paigeu | November 9, 2007 8:46 PM
First of all, in regards to the church fathers being the ones who wrote it down......
If it wasn't for Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, John Huss, and the other Protestants, we wouldn't even have access to the Bible.
Secondly, in regards to what Miss Regina said, it isn't impossible for God to do such a thing, it's that He wouldn't do it. God chose not to absolve Mary of her sins at the moment of Jesus' conception. That would break the rule of the Christian faith.....that to become a Christian, a person must accept Jesus Christ as their Savior who died on the Cross for their sins. The idea that Mary would become cleansed from her sins before the Crucifixtion is breaking the law of Non-Contradiction.
As I said before, Mary was a human being. She had bedheads, she fought with her husband, and of course she always had to keep track of her future Savior. That probably wasn't an easy job when she probably had 6+ kids to chase after.
Miss Layla, that was very hurtful in regards to the naysayers and "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against them." The Protestant end of the MommyLife spectrum are simply concerned for Miss Barbara's spiritual well being. If we didn't care, we wouldn't say anything. That's what's being a sister in Christ is all about.
Miss Barbara, I will praying that God speaks His intentions to you, and that you have a happy, wholesome spiritual life. :)
Posted by: Maiden of God | November 9, 2007 9:17 PM
The two oldest Christian faiths on this planet are the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics. Both are apostolic (having a lineage that originates with the first disciples) and both center their entire faith around the Eucharist. There are some issues that the Orthodox and the Catholics disagree vehemently on...but one of the issues that is agreed upon is this- that Mary was a perpetual virgin and sinless. Why do they agree on this? Because history is very explicit. All of the founding fathers of the Church believed it. It is stated in numerous places by people who actually KNEW Mary.
And get this...straight from Wikipedia:
"During the Protestant Reformation, the doctrine came to be questioned, although such notable reformers as Martin Luther,[18] Huldrych Zwingli,[19] John Calvin,[20] and John Wesley[21] accepted its veracity.[22] However, the absence of clear Biblical statements expressing the doctrine, in combination with the principle of sola scriptura, kept references to the doctrine out of the Reformation creeds."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary
Also...regarding the mass production of the bible. Before the printing press the Bible was available for purchase but it was very expensive due to the fact that it was HANDWRITTEN by monks.
The Church did not forbid the translation of the Bible, rather it just put limits on it because of people inaccurately translating it and causing heresies.
Even Luther's translation was not accurate (at least not by Catholic definition). Instead of translating the Greek Septugiant he translated the Hebrew bible which was missing 7 books. Why did he take it upon himself to declare that the Greek Old Testamant was non-canonical and yet he is willing to trust the Church in declaring what of the New Testament was canonical. There were many texts written in the same period as the ones we hold Sacred, and yet Christianity only recognizes what we now call the Bible as that which is Divinely Inspired. So you trust that the early church was inspired enough to declare in the councils of Nicea and Carthage the official New Testament and yet assume the defined Old Test was inaccurate and included too many books?
A thorough study of Christian history led me to conclude that the only current denominations that are even remotely close to the earliest Christian Church are the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic. For all the accusations against Catholicism for having changed through time, my studies suggest that Protestantism has made far more changes and taken many more liberties from what the earliest apostles of Acts had intended.
This is why I am a Catholic.
Posted by: paigeu | November 10, 2007 7:54 AM
God bless you and your family. Thank you for your witness. You''ll be in my prayers.
Posted by: MelanieB | November 10, 2007 11:59 AM
More thoughts regarding Marys Immaculate conception: (I have been doing more reading about it and a lot of thinking today and just wanted to post my thoughts)
The passage that is being referred to states "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God". But all have NOT sinned, have they? A newborn hasn't sinned. A 24week fetus hasn't sinned. A person who is in vegetative state from the moment of birth can't sin. What you would have to do to make literal sense of this passage is to change "sin" to "stain of sin" or "imperfection".
But then you can't take it literally either. Because not every single person who has ever lived was born with original sin. Adam and Eve had no original sin...so again to take this passage literally it would have to say "All are born with the blemish of sin...since the curse of Adam and Eve." But it doesn't say that...it says "all have sinned." Nope.
Did you also know that a mustard seed is NOT the "smallest of seeds"? I am sure that God knew that...but maybe it didn't really matter for his point to be valid. If you take every single verse of the bible extremely literally you are going to end up contradicting yourself quickly. You simply have to view it within its appropriate context.
Mary is the big DO OVER. Jesus is the New Adam, and Mary is the New Eve. Mary did say "yes" to salvation...when she said "let it be done to me according to your will". So what God did was push rewind on the space time continuum and have it apply to her at her conception to make her a spotless vessel....the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY SHE COULD HAVE FULFILLED THE NEW COVENANT BY BEING THE NEW EVE AND THE ARK OF THE COVENANT. If you really stop to think about it will start to seem highly unlikely and even a little ghastly the idea of the infant Jesus inhabiting the womb (and inheriting the human genes) of a sinful woman. That would seem to imply that the Ark that carried the stone tablets of the 10 Commandments required more reverence than the Ark of God Incarnate!
Salvation was a cooperative act between Jesus and Mary, just like "the fall" was a cooperative act between Adam and Eve. It is really quite fun and fascinating to compare the similarities. First of all Adam was "head" even before the fall...because woman came from his side. We were designed specifically for the cause of man. Our entire purpose in this existence is to complete mans work, his purpose, his mission... We carry through what he begins. Think of gestation...he implants the seed and we grow it.
Still though...it was Eve who sinned first. And then Man followed. oops.
In the New Covenant the New Adam- Jesus went first in the saving act. First He saves His mother so His mother can help Him complete the act of salvation for the rest of humanity. Then flash forward 14 years (or so) later and Mary says "Let it be done", the "Holy Spirit comes upon her" and Bam! the Second Person of the Trinity has 46 human chromosomes.
FUN FACT: there was NO controversy over the sinlessness of Mary until after the 12th century. So people debated such basics as the humanity of Jesus but didn't even have the sinlessness of Mary on their "no way" list.
What all this means is that women are important. We had an role to play in our fall, and a role to play in our redemption. Not because it was needed...God is sufficient in Himself and Jesus didn't technically "need" Mary but rather because God created us in His image...and what is His image? Family. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Everything He does mirrors His image...this cooperation of mind and purpose and love into a single "whole".
If one meditates on God as the Trinity and His identity as family then it becomes more and more obvious about why contraception is so repulsive to the dignity and purpose of the human being. Not because we are fulfilled through our childbearing but because we are fulfilled through our complete unadulterated unity with man. (Hence the reason that NFP is considered okay...because it isn't the consequence of the act that matters so much as completeness of the act itself. Altering the body or the act willfully prevents the full unification that the sex act is created to be.....which of course requires an acceptance of the belief that we are more than just spirit and that when God came to redeem us He desired to do it to both our Body and Soul...and that our bodies will also eventually see the redemption our souls have just like Christs risen flesh.....see Theology of the Body for more on this. )
This is why Catholics are more "pro-life" in dogma. Many protestants view the person as just spirit and our bodies as just a corrupted prison. This is not the view that St Thomas Aquinas held nor very consistent with scripture. Our slavery is our blindness to sin.... not our bodies. When we are awakened we will see that our bodies, our minds, and our spirits are all an indivisible part of our identity and our Glory in Gods image. This is why the salvation story will not be complete until the New Earth when our bodies are risen and transfigured into the way they were meant to be before the fall. We may enjoy the Beatific Vision (the presence of God) after our physical death....but that is only the first stage of our eternal rewards.
Posted by: paigeu | November 10, 2007 7:29 PM
On prayer as worship......
Catholics do not believe that we worship Mary or the saints in our act of praying to them. What makes something "worship" is the intention behind it, not the act itself in every case. For instance if someone says "Oh My God" they can say that in a spirit of worship as a prayer...or they could just as easily be saying it as a casual exclamation. The words themselves...which in the literal sense are directed towards God do not define it as worship.
My prayer is conversation. I believe those in heaven and those in purgatory can hear me. I believe that this can be inferred from our readings of scripture (though it doesn't come right out and say it word-for-word). I will often converse with Mary in an attitude of loving appreciation...or as I would a close friend or as I would talk to my Mom. I talk to Mary about God...I ask her questions and hope that she will respond back through the help of the Holy Spirit. I sometimes even talk to people who I know who have died and say "I love you and miss you and wish you were here". I suspect that they hear me, but this isn't worship.
When I am experiencing intense emotion it is funny because I rarely turn to the conversational style prayer I experience with the saints in heaven. If I am scared I say "OH MY GOD IN HEAVEN HELP ME!"...if I am exuberant in happiness I say with all passion and sincerity "PRAISE GOD!" When I experience the goodness of God or feel an intense need my whole body/self cries out passionately for Him and only Him.
I can love my mom, I can love Mary, I can talk to Mary, I can talk to St Christopher...just like I can talk to you and that takes nothing away from my relationship with God. At best it adds to it just like our conversations with other Christian women add to our lives and our understandings. But my deepest longing, my strongest desire, is for the presence of GOD. My dependence is on Jesus Christ. My faith is in Jesus's infinite mercy. I feel a pull within myself that can only be fulfilled through Christs presence within me (that I experience when I receive the Eucharist...which is the ultimate in Christian worship).
To call a conversation with Mary, or fond feelings towards Mary, worship seems as silly to me as saying that if I love my earthly mother and talk to her on the phone I must be worshiping her.
Anyone who does incorporate the saints into their Christianity realizes fully just how unequal they are to God in our minds and hearts.
Okay I have posted a lot here lately. I think I am done now. ;)
Posted by: paigeu | November 10, 2007 8:13 PM
My husband grew up in the Roman Catholic Church and his family is still very involved in that denomination.
He recommends this book:
The Gospel According to Rome
by James G. McCarthy. It is a "must read" for anyone who would like to know how the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church line up with Scripture. We have many copies of this book in our home and regularly give them out to people who are searching.
I hope this helps you, Barbara, as well as your readers.
Sincerely,
Lisa
Posted by: Lisa | November 10, 2007 9:23 PM
If you want to know how teachings of the Catholic Church line up with Scripture, why wouldn't you read something Catholic?
Barbara, I am reading your book after having read a recommendation on Regina's blog. Thank you for sharing so much wisdom. You have been in my prayers since I first read this post several days ago. Every time I pick up the book I can't help but think of you.
Surely someone has already recommended "Rome Sweet Home" by Scott and Kimberly Hahn (former Protestant minister). It was instrumental during my husband's conversion.
God bless you and your family.
Posted by: Amy | November 10, 2007 10:58 PM
I would like to comment on Lisa's book recommendation. James McCarthy is a very well known anti-Catholic. Neither his book nor any of his writings would be very helpful to anyone trying to discern what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
McCarthy's purpose is to draw people away from the Catholic Church and discourage those who would seek to learn more about it. His work is not an accurate portrayal of Catholic teaching.
I once heard it said that one would be a fool to ask an Israeli for a fair account of the Palestinians and vice versa. I thought that was a good analogy for anti-Catholic propaganda as well.
Here is a quotation from the book Lisa recommends:
"Do not think that by staying in the Roman Catholic Church you can change it. Though every error cataloged in this book has been pointed out by others long ago, the Church refuses to listen. It has never acknowledged a single doctrinal error. Indeed, it cannot, lest people realize that the Church's claim to infallibility is a charade. Far from admitting error, the Roman Catholic Church has shamelessly opposed its critics, staining its hands with their blood down through the centuries....Who is behind this great deception? According to the Bible...the lie can be traced to Satan himself, the deceiver of old, 'the father of lies' [John 8:44; 1 Tim 4:1]. This is not to say that the Pope, bishops, and priests of the Roman Catholic Church are consciously aware that they are serving Satan's purposes. Many are undoubtedly sincere...Nevertheless, they are responsible before God, for they have failed to take heed to God's Word. Having believed a false gospel, they remain in their sins. Consequently, but for a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in these last days, the vast majority of Roman Catholics alive on earth today, clergy and laity alike, will die in their sins." (James G. McCarthy, The Gospel According to Rome, page 312, 314-315)
Posted by: fran | November 11, 2007 12:10 AM
Welcome! My husband and I are also converts to Catholicism due to our involvement in pro-life work. Randall Terry (now a Catholic!) put us on the path to Rome way back in '92 when we read his article, "Why Do Chritians Use Birth Control?". We just welcomed baby number 8 two months ago :)
God bless you on your journey to "Rome Sweet Home"!
Posted by: Rachel | November 11, 2007 1:24 AM
Excellent article! It’s exactly what we are looking for. Our members are all pro-life. We would like to feature your article. Consider joining the Christians Against Leftist Heresy Blogroll at http://christiansagainstleftistheresy.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Faultline USA | November 13, 2007 5:19 PM
I really urge you to rethink this. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is all we need--no a pope or priest. Revelations says do not add or take away. Please, please rethink this decision. You can still be anti-abortion and Christian.
Posted by: Cameron | November 14, 2007 11:33 PM
My goodness, this is wonderful news. I wish more people would actually look into what the Catholic church teaches, instead of going off of what someone told them that they heard that the Church teaches. Coming from a non-denominational home growing up, it never ever ever answered my questions....why, if Our Lord said "THIS IS MY BODY", does every Protestant church attest to it being otherwise? Being symbolic only? The only church that could explain that for me was the Catholic Church. Because Our Lord said it, He meant it. There are more reasons, of course, but do not doubt, you are meant to be in the Church...The Church has not been the one to add or to take away from scripture...indeed, if it were not for the Catholic Church, there would be no "Bible" as we know it. The Protestant rewriters of the Bible were the ones to remove entire books of scripture, and some verses from others, solely for the reason that they supported the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is difficult to argue that scripture doesn't support the Catholic Church, when one doesn't have all of it in the first place...
So welcome home, dear sister. May God bless you and your family on your journey to the Church...
Posted by: Rachel | November 15, 2007 8:01 PM
God bless you and all you do for the culture of life. You are a true gift. May He continue to bless you on your journey home to the catholic faith. I came into the Catholic Church 9 years ago. It has been an amazing journey. I have been married 5 years now and have three beautiful children. We hope to have many more. I will pray for you, your work for our Lord, your family and journey of Faith. God bless you!!!
Posted by: Cristina | October 23, 2008 12:13 AM
Even though this post is pretty old, I just discovered it today. Welcome home! I'm a convert from the Evangelical movement too, and I have never been closer to Jesus than I have since I became Catholic (a little over a year ago). I too received a lot of sidelong glances and rude disbelief from my Evangelical friends and my Presbyterian parents, but God was so good to me! It's amazing how much more vibrant my relationship with Christ has become since I started the journey home!
God bless you!
Posted by: Maggie | December 12, 2008 11:33 AM
