December 9, 2007 6:55 PM
Elisabeth Elliot on the communion of saints
One of the stumbling blocks for evangelicals about respecting the Catholic faith is that we do ask for intercession from the saints who've preceded us into Heaven. A commenter here referred to this practice as praying to dead Christians. I hope that jolted you as it did me - those who've been born again into eternal life can never be dead Christians.
Elisabeth Elliott seems to agree that this is no heresy (my emphasis below):
The Unseen Company
author: Elisabeth Elliot
Source: Keep A Quiet Heart
Scripture: Acts 9:32-41 Hebrews 11-12:1 Romans 1:7 1 Corinthians 1:2Many of us belong to churches where a creed is often repeated by the congregation. Several of the ancient creeds include these words, "I believe in the communion of saints." For some the word saints means only certain specially holy people who have been officially designated as such. For others it means those who are now in heaven. The Bible is very matter-of-fact in showing that those who belong to Christ, i.e., Christians, are saints. Look at Acts 9:32 and 41 for a start. Then note the salutations in Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:2, and other places.
Do you ever think much about that communion? Do you actually believe in it? I'm learning. The communion of saints takes no notice of location. Here or on the other side of the world or in heaven, all who love the Lord are included, bound together as a body whose Head is Christ. The gallery of heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11 comprises not only those who achieved thrilling victories through faith, but also the destitute and persecuted, those who were tortured, flogged, imprisoned, and even sawn in two--people whom the world would never deem worthy, yet the Bible says the world was not worthy of them! And here's something worth pausing over: all were "commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us, so that only together with us would they be made perfect" (vv. 39-40).
When I pray I am often preoccupied and distracted, aware that my efforts are feeble and seemingly quite useless, but the thought that those distinguished heroes are to be perfected along with me (and with the writer of Hebrews, and with you and all the rest of the followers of the Lamb) changes the picture altogether and puts new heart into me. Grand and mysterious things are in operation. We are not alone. My prayers are perhaps a single note in a symphony, but a necessary note, for I believe in the communion of saints. We need each other. The prayers of one affect all. The obedience of one matters infinitely and forever.
We are told that we are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1, KJV)--those who found in Christ "their Rock, their Fortress, and their Might, their Captain in the well-fought fight" (to borrow the words of an old hymn), and "in the darkness drear their one true Light--Alleluia" (W.W. How: "For All the Saints").
When newly married and living in a little palm-thatched house in the jungle, Jim Elliot and I remembered that even in so remote a place we were still gathered in that great communion, and we used often to sing John Ellerton's hymn, "The Day Thou Gavest, Lord, Is Ended." (Lars and I sometimes sing it now.) My favorite stanzas:
We thank Thee that Thy Church, unsleeping,
While earth rolls onward into light,
Through all the world her watch is keeping,
And rests not now by day or night.As o'er each continent and island
The dawn brings on another day,
The voice of prayer is never silent,
Nor die the strains of praise away.Maybe there is a reader who is very weak and very lonely as he reads this today, tempted to feel that prayer is futile and goes nowhere. Think of the great Unseen Company that watches and prays as we "run with perseverance the race marked out for us"(Hebrews 12:1, NIV)! Think of that and be of good cheer--it's much too soon to quit!
As always, I'd like to encourage you to include Elisabeth Elliot in your morning reading. She gives you a lot to think about during the day. Subscribe to her daily devotions here.
Posted in Elisabeth Elliot, Inspiration | Permalink
Comments
I understand that our Christian brethren in heaven are very much alive. I just don't think we are supposed to pray to them.
I certainly understand we can ask each other to pray for us. However, once someone dies, that would involve contacting the dead. This is strictly forbidden in Scripture.
Posted by: Marie | December 9, 2007 9:55 PM
Uh oh! I would place a bet on the fact that Elizabeth's brother's prayers are being answered. She's going to be Catholic before you know it. Keep praying, Thomas Howard!
This is a great post!
Posted by: Clare | December 10, 2007 1:01 AM
I certainly understand we can ask each other to pray for us. However, once someone dies, that would involve contacting the dead. This is strictly forbidden in Scripture.
The prohibition in contacting the dead is against two way communication with the dead like you see with ouiga boards and such. We don't ask for any sort of information from those alive in Christ.
We Catholics ask those who have preceded us to heaven to pray for us here on earth.
Posted by: Tony | December 10, 2007 10:08 AM
I would agree with Marie. Of course, those Christians who have died are alive and well in heaven today. However,I don't see any precedent in Scripture for praying to them. In fact, we know from Hebrews that Jesus Christ alone is now our High Priest and the only mediator between God and man.
I honestly have a hard time believing that those who are living in the presence and glory of God are interested or praying for those of us below. I would imagine they spend their days in praise and glory to God alone!
Posted by: Courtney | December 10, 2007 10:15 AM
We're not contacting the dead. They're more alive than we are. Don't we believe they're "present with the Lord?" Is Jesus surrounded by a bunch of dead people? The Christian family does not only consist of those alive on earth at a particular moment. God's family spans the ages. Someone who lived on earth 1000 years ago is just as real and present to me as you are. They are fully my brother or sister.
Posted by: Clare | December 10, 2007 10:20 AM
“I understand that our Christian brethren in heaven are very much alive. I just don't think we are supposed to pray to them. I certainly understand we can ask each other to pray for us. However, once someone dies, that would involve contacting the dead. This is strictly forbidden in Scripture.â€
Unfortunately, Marie, it seems you are not understanding the fundamental basis for the Christian practice of asking saints for intercession. Outside of this framework, it is impossible to fully appreciate this historic Christian tradition.
The issue is not “contacting the dead,†as you put it. Yes, certain translations of Scripture phrase it as such, but “contacting the dead†for the Jewish community, to whom these Scriptures were first applied, is not the Christian practice of asking the intercession of the saints. Within the context of the Scriptures (Deuteronomy, 1 Samuel), the forbidden practice was associated with the occult and divination.
For one to insist that Scriptures apply this to all “contact with the dead†would condemn certain Scriptural passages such as Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus and his Apostles (Matthew 17) and Jesus’ story of the rich man who implored Abraham to warn his living brothers (Luke 16) and even those "dead" people who appeared to many others after the Resurrection (Matthew 27).
Marie, you are right, Scripture is quite explicit in it condemnation of sorcery, divination, witchcraft, and necromancy. Be well assured, the Catholic Church throughout Christendom has upheld this important Scriptural teaching. Yet, Scripture is also seasoned with various instances of those who have gone before us in faith hearing us, interceding on our behalf (Revelation 5:8), and serving as witnesses to us of God’s goodness (Hebrews 12:1).
Once again, to understand this Christian tradition, one must immerse himself in the full context of Scripture and have faith in the full power of God to accomplish the communion of His saints in Heaven and on Earth. And, most importantly, one must appreciate the truth of God’s own Word when He tells us: “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38).
When we, in prayer, through the power of Jesus Christ, ask our fellow saints who have gone before us to intercede for us, we are not “contacting the dead,†we are celebrating the gift God has imparted to us in making us His Living Body in communion with each other. In Him, though our bodies may die, we are truly ALIVE! Glory be to God!
Posted by: Fran | December 10, 2007 10:31 AM
The Bible prohibits necromancy, not prayers to those alive in Christ in Heaven. We're not trying to raise the dead and get them to do things for us, particularly not as some sort of extra-Christian spiritual gophers.
Posted by: Christopher | December 10, 2007 10:55 AM
Marie,
I don't know how sincere you are about wanting to understand the Catholic teaching of the Communion of the Saints, but maybe this will be helpful: the faithful on earth, those in purgatory(they're being purified b/c nothing unclean can enter heaven, see Rev. 21:27-these souls will eventually go to heaven), and those in heaven are all part of the Mystical Body of Christ. When we ask for their prayers, we are acting within the Mystical Body. We are aware that Christ is the Head, the Source of all that is good and holy. However, if you were to seek out a medium to conduct a seance to contact the dead, then you would be acting outside of the Mystical Body.
Any friends of Christ should also be our friends. We should honor His friends. When one reads the lives of the canonized saints one sees how Christ transformed them. They are holy examples of how we can trust and follow Christ. As St. Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." 1Cor. 11:1. I think that could go for all those who've gone before us who persevered to the end in following Jesus. Here are references to the Communion of Saints: Act 4: 32-37; 1Cor.12:12-27; Colossians 1; 1John3:16-18; Rev.6:9-11; Matt.17:1-5; Mark12:26-27; Heb.12:1-2,22-23. In heaven, there is no more need of faith and hope. There is only Love. Those in heaven are perfectly united in this Love. They love us more than they ever could have on earth. So why shouldn't we ask for their prayers? Aren't all things possible through God?
Posted by: bkw | December 10, 2007 10:59 AM
When Catholics “pray to†Mary and the saints, we are asking them to pray FOR us… this is no different than you asking me to pray for you, except that it’s done mentally, instead of vocally because they are in heaven. Mary and the saints then pray TO Jesus FOR us, just as I would pray for you. We do not pray TO them as if they have the power to answer our prayers or in a sense of worshipping them. Again, we are merely asking them to pray (or intercede) for us. This IS in Scripture. (1 Tim 2:1-4) This might be better understood if we remove the word “pray†and the meaning you are applying to it. Catholics ASK Mary and the saints to pray for us. We are not praying in the sense of worship but praying in a historical meaning of the word, which is “to ask or begâ€.
Posted by: Tracy | December 10, 2007 12:02 PM
Marie, what is forbidden in scripture is necromancy. Necromancy - just as it is forbidden in scripture, is forbidden by the Catholic Church.
As a result, I would suggest that you have an incomplete knowledge of either necromancy, the communion of saints, or both.
I don't say that to in any way insult you - for many years I held the same assumption that you do.
Posted by: Monica | December 10, 2007 1:05 PM
As a cradle Catholic, I find it quite sad that some non-Catholics don't believe in the Communion of Saints. The saints and their heroic lives of virtue and/or martyrdom are inspiring examples of how to live the Christian life. If you have a difficult marriage, ask St. Rita to pray for you. If you are a father, ask St. Joseph to pray for you. If you want prayers to help your evangelization efforts, ask St. Paul to pray for you. When a Catholic is Confirmed, they chose a saint to be named after. They pick a saint that lived life in a way that attracts them to him or her. I picked St. Cecelia for my Confirmation name because she is the patron saint of music. But as I've grown up, I realize how much courage she had and how much she loved God, even to the point of martyrdom. I ask her to pray for me for perserverance in my vocation as a mother. I also love St.Therese, the Little Flower, as she is the one who teaches us her "little way" which is doing everything we do, big or small, with huge amounts of love. I think of the saints in heaven as my friends and I sure would not want to go through life without their intercession for me. They are part of why the Catholic faith is incredibly rich and full. To not believe in the Communion of Saints is an impoverished view of Christianity and the power of God. Julie C.M.
Posted by: Julie C.M. | December 10, 2007 4:48 PM
Courtney wrote:
However,I don't see any precedent in Scripture for praying to them.First, I would suggest that you honestly consider whether everything you do as a Christian has an explicit Scriptural precedent. This is a hard qualification to maintain. I do not know your faith tradition, so I can not make any particular suggestions, but I do know that the vast majority of Christian traditions hold certain holy practices which can not be found explicitly in Scripture. That’s just a good place to start.
Secondly, the holy practice of asking those who have gone before you in faith for help and intercession has particularly Jewish roots which Jesus himself understood and exhibited without condemnation within the context of Scripture. We see this where Jesus tells the story of the rich man who implores Abraham to help his brothers still on earth. Also, we see this Jewish understanding also in the murmurings of those who heard Jesus’ cry on the Cross and thought he was crying out to Elijah for help.
In fact, we know from Hebrews that Jesus Christ alone is now our High Priest and the only mediator between God and man.
Amen! Christ ALONE is the High Priest of the New Covenant and the Mediator of this covenant. Please know that the Catholic Church affirms this as well. Only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross redeems us and only Christ’s Blood seals this redemptive covenant. However, historical Christianity has always recognized that, as Christians, we all share in the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) and play an important role in Christ’s priesthood (1 Pet. 2). This is precisely how we understand our participation in the communion of saints.
I honestly have a hard time believing that those who are living in the presence and glory of God are interested or praying for those of us below.Spending time in the book of Revelation may help you. The image of heaven which St. John provides is a very explicit picture of the communion of saints in heaven. And in this picture, we have very good indications of the heavenly saints lifting up prayers for all the holy ones and pleading with God for justice on earth. In chapters 5 and 8, for instance, we have a very clear picture of the heavenly communion offering, as incense (as in Psalm 141:2), the prayers of all the saints—there is no distinction between heaven and earth. Further, in Revelation chapter 6 we are given the image of the martyrs who do, indeed, show interest in what is going on “below†on Earth as they plead for judgment on their behalf.
I would imagine they spend their days in praise and glory to God alone!This is actually a really good point to consider. I think that while God did first create Man for His own glory, He also (by evidence of the creation of woman) created us for communion with each other which also brings Him glory. Therefore, in the perfection that Heaven alone affords, we look forward not only to spending our days in praise of God, but also we look forward to the gift of fellowship and communion which God graciously offers.
Through Christ, our Savior, we have been given the gift of eternal Life. It is because of this primary and fundamental Christian doctrine that we have the assurance of communion with all the saints. St. John writes: “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another†(1 John 1:7), thus in fellowship, we ask for the prayers and intercession of all those who also walk in the light—in heaven and on earth!
Posted by: Fran | December 10, 2007 4:51 PM
I pray for my children and family members almost daily. My grandmother prayed for all her children and grand children. I find it hard to believe that I would stop praying for them once I'm in heaven."Oh well,I made it here so I don't have to keep praying for others." THAT would be much harder to believe. Heaven will be a paradise surrounded by the saints, but I can't imagine that my prayers to God for others would stop.
Posted by: sue | December 10, 2007 6:08 PM
Btw,
I never said I was trying to understand Catholicism. I do try to understand what people are saying or writing. But I'm not presenting myself as an inquirer into the Catholic faith.
I am interested in challenging some of the teachings or the Roman Catholic church. I don't do it in a spirit of hatred or "gotcha," but with a zeal to see all of us, myself included, staying on the straight and narrow path that leads to salvation. We all have to be constantly on our guard against error. We are none of us immune.
I am genuinely interested in understanding how Roman Catholics reconcile some of their beliefs and practices with the Bible. I am a conservative Presbyterian, so that is where I come from theologically. I was converted from atheism at age 21 and had somewhat of a similar life to Barbara, even knocking around SF living the atheist/feminist life around the same time. So I feel a particular kinship with her.
Courtney, I do consider whether "everything I do" has a scriptural precedent. Not what color socks I wear, or whether to have apple jacks or cheerios for breakfast. But in terms of my doctrine, my practice, of course I do. And I am genuinely ready to hear from my brothers, as iron sharpens iron, share with me from scripture where I am wrong. I have changed some opinions/beliefs/practices over the years. I am willing to change if shown by the Bible that I am in error.
By the comments of some in this thread, no one is dead! I know the souls of Christians go to heaven, and the souls of unbelievers go to hell, and so, of course in that sense, we are all still alive. However, by "dead" we all mean passed from this earth. That is how I use the word "dead."
And I'll stand my ground, we aren't supposed to be contacting the dead (although they are in a real sense still alive), and I don't see from Scripture that that just means having them talk to us. I don't think we are supposed to be making contact, or even trying to make contact, with them either.
Deut 18:9-12 ". . .you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or ONE WHO CALLS UP THE DEAD..."
Isaiah 8:10 ". . .should not a people seek their God? SHOULD THEY SEEK THE DEAD ON BEHALF OF THE LIVING? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
The caps aren't to yell, just to emphasize what I think is the important part.
Posted by: Marie | December 11, 2007 1:09 AM
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
"No Contact with the dead"
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
"Directly to Jesus"
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Posted by: Tracy | December 11, 2007 10:48 AM
Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.
Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).
"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).
"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
Hilary of Poitiers
"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).
Ephraim the Syrian
"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).
"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).
The Liturgy of St. Basil
"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).
Pectorius
"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).
"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).
Gregory of Nyssa
"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).
John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).
"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).
Ambrose of Milan
"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).
Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).
Augustine
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).
Posted by: Tracy | December 11, 2007 10:53 AM
I never said I was trying to understand Catholicism. I do try to understand what people are saying or writing. But I'm not presenting myself as an inquirer into the Catholic faith. . . . I am interested in challenging some of the teachings or the Roman Catholic church. . . . I am genuinely interested in understanding how Roman Catholics reconcile some of their beliefs and practices with the Bible.Hmmmm. . .What you are saying above, to me, is analogous to saying that while you have no interest in trying to understand Nutrition or Digestion, you are interested in challenging people about why they eat certain things and interested to know how they maintain health and manage their weight.
That’s a really difficult discussion to have.
May I offer that in order to “challenge some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church†you need to actually understand what they are. And to “understand how Roman Catholics reconcile their beliefs and practices with the Bible,†you must try to understand Catholicism.
But. . .having said that I fully appreciate your protestation. I really do. I can relate personally. To honestly consider if what I am saying, as a Catholic, is true is not an easy thing to do. G.K. Chesteron, in fact, during his own conversion to the Catholic Church wrote:
It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment a man ceases to pull against it he feels a tug towards it. The moment he ceases to shout it down he begins to listen to it with pleasure. The moment he tries to be fair to it he begins to be fond of it.
For someone taught and convinced that the Catholic Church can not be right, that is a hard thing to consider.
And I'll stand my ground, we aren't supposed to be contacting the dead (although they are in a real sense still alive), and I don't see from Scripture that that just means having them talk to us. I don't think we are supposed to be making contact, or even trying to make contact, with them either.I also understand your hesitation, within your faith tradition, to accept the possibility that perhaps this contact with the saints is permissible within a Scriptural context. However, once again I would challenge you to do business with the Scriptures already offered which clearly show instances of this very possibility (Matthew 17, Luke 16,Matthew 27, and Revelation) .
The Scriptures you offer are certainly helpful in understanding the historic Christian position opposing all forms of witchcraft, sorcery, necromancy, and the like, but they do not address the post-Resurrection truth of the Communion of Saints which joins His Body together in fellowship. Fellowship is the key.
The passage you cite from Isaiah, for instance (which, by the way, is from 8:19), in its full context does not at all deal with praying for saintly intercession. Instead, it addresses the issue of the people of God falling back on their pagan gods and their practice using mediums or fortunetellers. This is not the Christian practice we are discussing.
For Christians throughout history—as early as the 1st century—the practice of asking for saintly intercession from those who have gone before us in faith has as its foundation our understanding that through Christ we have fellowship with other believers and that, because of Christ, death has no power over this communion with God and His Body.
Posted by: Fran | December 11, 2007 9:57 PM
I hear what you are saying about the saints in heaven, and the incense (which is the prayers). I am not quite convinced, though, that this means that Christians on earth are praying to Christians in heaven who are then delivering petitions to Jesus.
Throughout the Old and New Testaments, we see saints in prayer. Abraham, Samuel, David, and Jonah - Jesus Himself! the apostles, Hannah, Esther, you name them, the Bible is full of prayer, prayer, prayer.
But never do I see an instance of any of these saints praying to anyone but God Himself. Or, to use different language, never do I see a saint on earth talking to saint in heaven. I would think that, if we are supposed to do that, we'd have seen it happen, at least once, in the Bible.
Posted by: Marie | December 11, 2007 11:22 PM
Good Morning, Marie. . .(and thank you, Barbara, for being so gracious to us in allowing this discussion!)
I hear what you are saying about the saints in heaven, and the incense (which is the prayers). I am not quite convinced, though, that this means that Christians on earth are praying to Christians in heaven who are then delivering petitions to Jesus.
This is what the Scriptures (Revelation 5) say:
When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
have made them {to be} a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, {be} blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
The context of this whole passage is the Communion of the saints joining together in prayer and praise. The 24 elders, most Scripture scholars (Protestant and Catholic) would contend, is representative of the 12 heads of the tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles of Jesus. This is a most evident representation, especially at the writing of this text, of the union and prayerful fellowship of the people of God in heaven and on earth.
Within this very passage, we see a pointed emphasis on the common prayer of “every created thing which is in heaven and on earth.†Thus, we understand that when the 24 elders offered up “the prayers of the saints†they were doing so on behalf of the whole kingdom—those in heaven and, as the elders sing, those reigning upon the earth.
This is a perfect example, within Scripture, of how our prayers here on earth are heard, offered, and joined together with the prayers of those saints who have gone before us in faith.
Throughout the Old and New Testaments, we see saints in prayer. Abraham, Samuel, David, and Jonah - Jesus Himself! the apostles, Hannah, Esther, you name them, the Bible is full of prayer, prayer, prayer.Exactly, and Jesus Himself had contact with at least 2 saints who were no longer on the earth—as witnessed by 3 of his Apostles. Jesus Himself and His Apostles were explicitly in fellowship and communication with Moses and Elijah.
But never do I see an instance of any of these saints praying to anyone but God Himself. Or, to use different language, never do I see a saint on earth talking to saint in heaven. I would think that, if we are supposed to do that, we'd have seen it happen, at least once, in the Bible.“At least once, in the Bible†is a hard qualification to demand. Not everything we believe is so explicit in Scripture. There are many things that we believe, as Christians, which do not occur even one time in the Bible. Some are strongly suggested (the full humanity and divinity of Christ), others are less explicit (the Holy Trinity), and still others (such as the canon of Scripture, for instance) are not even mentioned. Yet, we hold them as truth and good and worthy of belief.
We believe that the saints hear us and intercede for us because it is what we understand from Scripture and it is a holy practice of the early Church. We believe that their prayers for us are powerful for Scripture tells us that the prayers of holy men are powerful. We trust that, through Christ, we have fellowship with everyone who walks in the light in heaven and on earth and that fellowship extends beyond our earthly existence into the eternity God has promised to all those who love Him.
Posted by: Fran | December 12, 2007 9:52 AM
Oh Fran,
I hardly think Jesus meeting on the Mount of Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah means we're supposed to be praying to them! Of course Jesus can interact with them anytime! He's God!
Note that the disciples' notion that they should build three tabernacles there - one for Jesus, one for Moses, one for Elijah - was not taken up.
I certainly do see the passage of Revelation that you cite as a tremendous worship service, the prayers of the saints on earth, the prayers of the saints in general - I just don't see that people on earth are therefore contacting the believers in heaven, etc.
The Trinity and the closing of the Canon are most certainly explicitly taught in Scripture. I don't think we'd disagree on the many references to the Trinity in Scripture, beginning in Genesis, reiterated in John, instructed in baptism instructions, referenced in Isaiah, etc. As for the canon of Scripture, I know you'd include the Apocrypha, but the references of Christ to all the books in the OT as God's word seals the deal for me on the Old Testament; as for the new, Revelation seals it explicitly.
But there's nobody praying to departed saints in the Bible.
Posted by: Marie | December 12, 2007 11:05 PM
Marie, forgive my tardiness (as I write this I wonder if you will ever read it, in fact). We’ve been away from computer access on a family trip into the mountains—boys do so well with some outdoor refreshment! I will pick up where we left off. . .
You last wrote:
I hardly think Jesus meeting on the Mount of Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah means we're supposed to be praying to them! Of course Jesus can interact with them anytime! He's God!Marie, I cited the Transfiguration as a response to this statement of yours:
Throughout the Old and New Testaments, we see saints in prayer. Abraham, Samuel, David, and Jonah - Jesus Himself! the apostles, Hannah, Esther, you name them, the Bible is full of prayer, prayer, prayer.You, yourself, contended that you could not find “an instance†of anyone communicating with those who have gone before them. This was one of my examples. I understand that you are now narrowing the field to exclude the instance of the Transfiguration because “Jesus can. . .He’s God,†but my point stands.
But never do I see an instance of any of these saints praying to anyone but God Himself.
In fact you have sort of made my point. . . it is because Jesus is God that the communion of saints is truly in communion!
Jesus Himself, along with 3 of his apostles, were in direct communication with 2 departed saints. And, yes, it is because Jesus is God! Because of Jesus’ Life, Death, and Resurrection, we have been given an immeasurable gift of eternal Life and holy fellowship with all the saints. We see immediate evidence of this post-Resurrection holy fellowship in Matthew’s gospel as “many bodies of saints who had fallen asleep. . .appeared to many.â€
Note that the disciples' notion that they should build three tabernacles there - one for Jesus, one for Moses, one for Elijah - was not taken up.
Noted. Yet, I’m curious as to why you would point this out. Sure, it wasn’t “taken up,†but neither was it shot down or condemned. What immediately followed Peter’s awe-struck proposition was the voice of God glorifying His Son—hardly a reprimand of Peter’s enthusiasm!
I certainly do see the passage of Revelation that you cite as a tremendous worship service, the prayers of the saints on earth, the prayers of the saints in general - I just don't see that people on earth are therefore contacting the believers in heaven, etc.Then, I think here is the point of our contention. Marie, what do you do in worship? In the Catholic Church, the source and summit of our worship is Christ in the Eucharist. In communion (which includes communication among the people of God) with each other, we glorify, praise, and worship our God in recognizing His Holy Presence among us. It is within this context of worship, that we understand the communal worship depicted in Revelation.
I think I understand that in your faith tradition, you do not recognize the communion of saints as being in full communion with each other so as to have a legitimate mode of communication. In my faith tradition, exemplified by the prayers of the early Christians, we understand that in order for the heavenly saints to offer, as incense, the prayers of all the saints, they would have received the prayers of ALL the saints—to include those prayers of the saints still on earth. Thus, “the great Unseen Company†(as Elisabeth Elliot puts it) watches us, prays for us, and receives our prayers which they, in turn, offer up in that great heavenly worship.
The Trinity and the closing of the Canon are most certainly explicitly taught in Scripture. I don't think we'd disagree on the many references to the Trinity in Scripture, beginning in Genesis, reiterated in John, instructed in baptism instructions, referenced in Isaiah, etc.Yes, I would imagine that you and I would, indeed, cite the very same Scriptures to support our understanding of the Trinity, but my point still stands that the Trinity does not appear explicitly in Scripture. This is particularly why it took the Church almost 300 years to define this doctrine and why there still are theologies today which contest the traditional notion of the Trinity. It is obvious to us because we share a common doctrinal tradition affirmed by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, not because the Trinity is explicit in Scripture.
As for the canon of Scripture, I know you'd include the Apocrypha, but the references of Christ to all the books in the OT as God's word seals the deal for me on the Old Testament; as for the new, Revelation seals it explicitly.I think here you have misunderstood me entirely. Please let me clarify.
While there are places in Scripture which reference other Scriptures, we have no Scripturally mandated canon of Scripture. This was my point. As Christians, we accept a collection of books as Scripture based on our faith tradition, not based on any listing of these books within Scripture. Thus, the Canon of Scripture is an outstanding example of a particular (and important) doctrine which is not found in Scripture.
Further, Christ does not reference “all the books in the OT.†In fact, if this were our only qualification for the OT canon, we would have to immediately throw out Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon which are not quoted at all in the New Testament.
And about Revelation. . .This is what St. John writes:
I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book (Rev. 22:18).
I am not sure what exactly about this Scripture (which is the one I presume you are referencing) that seals the canon of the New Testament explicitly. The truth of the matter is that St. John was referring to the book (or the scroll, as it is more accurately translated from Greek) he was writing at that time, not the collection of books we know as the Bible. Once again, my point remains. . .We accept the books of the Bible as canonical, not because they are listed in Scripture, but because it is our tradition.
But there's nobody praying to departed saints in the Bible.
Through this discussion, I think I better understand your perspective. And I better understand the divide which is still vast.
I understand that you think that everything you believe is explicit in Scripture. I disagree, but I understand your position. My point, however, is that the Catholic understanding of the communion of saints and asking for saintly intercession is, like other doctrines we share, not explicit in Scripture, yet they are supported by Scripture within the Catholic interpretive tradition.
I “get†that you will not at this time accept praying to saints based on your own faith tradition. But in end, we are both appealing to traditions of faith, not explicit Scriptural mandates.
Posted by: Fran | December 18, 2007 9:49 AM
