June 11, 2008 8:17 AM
Evangelical to Catholic #23 - Why the Saints?
[Note: this is part of a continuing series chronicling my journey from evangelicalism to Catholicism. This series is not meant to cause division, but to reveal division already there - and to spark honest discussion. As an evangelical I've heard and continue to hear lots of criticism of the Catholic church but little self-examination on the Protestant side. So if my comments seem more directed towards questioning nonCatholic believers, that is why. Please, if you are new to this discussion, realize that a lot of ground has already been covered in the comments and read through those on previous entries before rehashing old news. I am receiving a lot of feedback that this has been an eye-opening and thought-provoking series for many believers on either side. If that is the case, then I consider my call as a writer fulfilled. I can only hope that each of us is examining his/her conscience for areas of stubbornness, presumption and pride.]
Elisabeth Elliot wrote:
One Man's GodlinessLet us never imagine that to fear the Lord and find joy in his commandments make no real difference in the world. They matter. One man's godliness may well make the difference between another's shipwreck and his reaching the harbor, for a man who actually enjoys obeying God is "a beacon in darkness for honest men" (Ps 112:4 NEB).
Reading the biographies of men and women whose hearts were gladly given to God has lit the way for me. Seeing the obedience of just one simple Christian has more than once steered me clear of danger.
This reminded me of a revelation I've had since returning to the Catholic Church.
As an Evangelical, I went along with the popular wisdom on the evils of Catholicism. I never investigated for myself. I simply absorbed the myths which had been passed down through generations by unquestioning believers.
One is their fear of/hostility toward the saints. This is a problem mainly of semantics as Protestants believe Catholics worship saints. We don't. We pray for their intercession, just as we pray for intercession from our friends still on earth.
This came up some time ago in a blog discussion and an angry reader wrote that she didn't believe in praying to dead people - a sentiment echoed a few weeks later by one of my daughter's friends who was "discussing" our conversion with her (not from healthy curiosity but more in the "gotcha" spirit.
When Maddy related this conversation to me, she laughed and said that she immediately said, "But they aren't dead!" - which is what I'd replied to the adult who tried to put down my faith by trapping me with what Protestant/evangelicals continue to misunderstand.
The saints are not dead. That a believer would allow that to slip out of her mouth is very telling. The saints are in heaven, as we will be someday. When we say the Creed and refer to the "communion of saints" we are talking about believers throughout time and space.
In fact, I have often heard Bible preachers addressing their congregations as saints. Isn't that interesting? I don't know about you, but I certainly don't feel worthy of that title. And isn't it ironic that the people who rail against Catholicism's acknowledgment of saints use the term so loosely?
But this was my revelation: that God built something in us that made us need someone to look up to. Of course, we look up to Jesus - in worship and prayer. But he also obviously gave us a longing for heroes/role models.
Look how the evangelical world creates heroes. How many "stars" fill the evangelical firmament? And the problem is they so often fall. How disappointing - even devastating - it has been to Christians when a swaggering preacher man is revealed to be living a double life, telling us all how to flee from sin while embracing it himself.
But what of the saints? They usually were not super stars. They lived quiet lives of devotion to God and service to others. Some were used by God to perform miracles - another claim denied vehemently by evangelicals who claim the same thing for themselves. Irony upon irony.
Studying the lives of saints is like seeing those beacons spoken of so eloquently in Elisabeth Elliot's passage above. How much more sense it makes to use people whose lives have consistently proven to be worthy of emulation than to try to fill that God-given part of us which wants to find role models.
The saints point us to God. They are still our brothers and sisters but they are in a place where they are no longer subject to temptation, can no longer fall.
When our earthly heroes fall, it is confirmation that we cannot rise above our sin. It works as an invitation/excuse for us to fail as well.
As I see pictures and statues of saints and read their stories, I am reminded of the virtues, devotion and sacrifice evidenced in their lives. This strengthens my faith and helps me stay the course.
You know, Martin Luther never intended to rid the church of saints - nor even of Mary. In fact, in his tomb in Whittenburg there is a statue of the coronation of Mary with him, along with an inscription naming her the honored Queen of Heaven.
I am so puzzled by how and why the Protestant Church has deemed it necessary through the years to strip away so many aspects of our historical faith that add texture and meaning and historicity . As I delve more deeply into my faith I find myself feeling like a child who has been cut off from relatives for many years.
Can a believer live a godly life without the saints? Of course. But why should we purposely refuse a gift of God for our spiritual benefit and growth?
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For further exploration:
Why Saints? - from Orthodox church, but a very readable and understandable site.
Saints - beautiful site with pictures, brief history and what we can learn from the life of each saint.
Praying to the Saints
Saints and Angels
The Communion of Saints
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Comments
Even though I'm not Catholic (my kids would add "yet", but we'll see...)I have never had any problem asking the saints to pray for me, any more than I would with asking the person in the next pew to do so. It's so easy for many to forget that God, and those who have gone before us, are outside time, and eternally living! Maddy has it right.
Posted by: Salome Ellen | June 11, 2008 9:46 AM
Saints as used in the Bible is referring to all those who have been called out of the world, as it were, and separated unto God. This refers to any person who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit - the second birth talked about by Jesus in John 3. Paul addressed all the believers he was writing to as 'saints'.
I was convicted of my sinfulness before a holy God back in 1994. My eyes were open to the fact that apart from Christ, I could not do anything on my own and that my sin separated me from God and I was deserving of His wrath and Hell. I realized (by the grace of God) that it was only Jesus' death on the cross and His taking the wrath I so justly deserved that would save me. Nothing I could do would add to that. Oh what a great, loving, merciful and just God! How gracious He is to do that for lost, undeserving sinners!!! My life changed radically after that. My desires changed and I had a love for people that was never there before, praise God! The good works that were now evident in me were not to get to Heaven, but out of a heart of gratitude for what God did for me and His love flowing out to others.
That being said, I am a saint. No, on my own merits I am nothing and undeserving of God's wonderful grace. But He has set me apart for Him and called me out of a life of sinfulness to be holy (not perfect, for we will never achieve perfection this side of eternity) as He is holy. This is not something set aside for only a certain group of people, but for all those who are called of God and have been born again.
I, too, like to read and study the lives of those who have gone before us such as Charles Spurgeon, St. Augustine and others who have fought in the trenches, as it were, and lived to tell about it. We can all benefit from the wisdom of all the saints.
I thank God for Saint Joy, who led me to Christ on that April 5th night in 1994. She discipled me for years after my salvation and taught me to search the Scriptures for myself and not take anyone's word as gospel truth. She loved Jesus so much and her life was an example of love, joy and holiness. I also thank God for Saint Monica, my sister in Christ who the Lord put in my life to hold me accountable. I thank God for Saint David, who is in my Bible study group and gives me a picture of what a godly christian man is supposed to look like. He is the real deal. I thank God for all the saints He's placed in my life!!!! Thank you, Jesus!!!!
Thank you, Barbara, for a wonderful topic!!
P.S. I was raised Catholic and attended catholic schools and studied Catholicism so I am very well versed in the beliefs and practices of the catholic church although I am no longer Catholic.
Posted by: Libby | June 11, 2008 11:18 AM
Why would I take the time praying to the saints when scriptures clearly state that Jesus is the only mediator between man and Christ? It also says to pray to no other. Most people have never researched into the beginnings of Catholicism. It's not what it is now and is much more watered down from it's beginnings. Thank goodness! The bible never talks about pergatory. Never talks about praying to the saints. Never talks about going to Mary to intercede for us. I know Catholics can pull little scriptures here and there but you can't take bits and pieces from the bible. You have to take it in whole. I can understand what Christian you are talking about. Of course those "Saints" aren't dead, they are in heaven. But no where in the bible does it state they will be interceding in anyway for us. That is what Christ is for and we will all be standing before Christ and His father after we die. Not even Mary. When someone tried to lift up Mary in the bible as someone to "worship", Jesus very quickly shot it down lest someone do that very thing. I guarantee the saints and Mary are up in Heaven. Once people die, you can't pray their soul out of hell, or pergetory. It's appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgement. I'm not saying Catholics are wicked by any means! I just believe they are doing what man always has. Worshipping the creation instead of the Creator. Why do we need the saints to intercede for us? Thats what Jesus came to the earth for. I'm sure all Catholics will disagree with me. That's okay. I have loads of Scripture to back it up. I know you will disagree too. I did loads of my own biblical research before coming to this conclusion. That's why it's it important to know our bible so we don't fall for whatever "seems right to man". Christ started the first Christian church and did not ever mention anything about Mary as someone to pray to. No one had to make an appointed with the saints or Mary to be able to talk to Jesus. :)
Posted by: Virginia | June 11, 2008 12:32 PM
Barbara,
I always find these types of discussion interesting. I was raised as a Southern Baptist (we weren't devout baptists though) I converted to RC after attending with my husband for many years (he is a cradle Catholic). My children have been baptized in the Catholic church too. After nine years, I find myself missing the protestant church. I love liturgical worship, so we are happily attending the United Methodist church which is a blend of contemporary and traditional worship. I have a question for you. I was once asked by a friend why we (Catholics) pray to saints? I said, as you mentioned that it is the same as asking a living christian to pray for you. The person responded, "no it's not, you can literally ASK a living person to pray for you, but you must PRAY to a saint to ASK for pray...so that is not the same." I was stumped as to a response. How would you respond to that question/answer?
Posted by: Karen | June 11, 2008 1:37 PM
Although I'm sure you're right that some Protestants dislike the whole Catholic saint thing because they think you are praying to the dead, I think far more just realize that in the Bible, *all* believers are called saints, not just a select few.
Posted by: Kristina | June 11, 2008 2:03 PM
Virginia,
If you are sure we all will disagree with you, and you have already made up your own mind, why are you participating in this conversation?
Posted by: Marisa | June 11, 2008 2:11 PM
Barbara,
I haven't read blogs regularly for a long time. I just read here than you're moving toward the Catholic church. Being of a certain age, and having been through a few churches in different denominations myself, I understand.
I somewhat envy you. I have some Catholic friends, and have nothing but respect for them and their faith and tradition. Those rituals give a sense of stability in times of turmoil.
Their children with Down syndrome go to the catechism classes and get confirmed, generally. (One, who has autism, is taken by an aide to sit in the sanctuary for ten minutes during the week.) The church seems to have more of a category for disability than evangelical churches do.
Bill Gaventa told me that the liturgical services have more for our children with special needs to grab onto, because they're so much more visual.
I picked up a few icons from the Serbian Orthodox table at the local international festival a few years ago. One of my Catholic friends set up an altar in her house. She has a number of icons. I like them. They pull your mind out of chronos time into kairos.
I frequently wish I could go into the local Catholic church and sit, to relieve stress. We've visited a number of Catholic churches on vacations, as tourists. When our son was small, and nursing several times during the night, we visited the nearby St. Margaret of Cortona, because they has a late Sunday service and a cry room in the back that was part of the sanctuary, not a nursery.
The service seemed much more focused on the Bible text than Protestant ones do, which always seemed to go against the stereotype, for me.
Godspeed.
Posted by: Julana | June 11, 2008 2:12 PM
Dear Julana -
Actually I recommitted to the Catholic Church after 20 years as an Evangelical last fall. My husband, who had no Catholicism in his background and who was not under pressure from me - because I naively thought I could attend both the Catholic and evangelical church without ruffling feathers - began to study the early church writings and decided to become Catholic - which he did at the Easter Vigil.
One of my daughters - largely influenced by the reaction she saw in the Evangelical community - began to study and she will be received into the church in a few weeks.
You can read my random thoughts and the ensuing battleground my blog became - many of my dearest readers left for good - here Just scroll to the bottom and begin reading in chronological order.
I too used to seek solace by sitting in Catholic churches, where I felt the presence of God so strongly. This began about ten years into my Christianity. Of course, as a committed pro-life (not anti-abortion, but pro-life)believer, I was always more identified with the Catholic Church's unwavering defense of life.
I found myself confused by the ugly prejudice I found in evangelicalism - preaching from the pulpit that assumed everyone in the congregation despised Catholics, homeschool groups which excluded them, the prevalent belief that they were not "real" Christians. I knew Catholics who were real Christians who bore these indignities with grace. That spoke to me.
I was also impressed - in a negative way - by the hostility that erupted from my evangelical readers when I announced my intentions to renew my Catholic heritage (I was baptized Catholic as a baby but grew up in a helter skelter environment).
But you can read the details if you're curious at the link above.
What I will tell you is that the church has been absolutely wonderful for my kids with Down syndrome. The service is one they can understand and respond to because it is not just intellectual, but a wholistic worship that appeals to all the God-given parts of humans. Why shouldn't we have rituals and smells and sounds? We have them in our homes, in our military, in our domestic holiday traditions.
My sons with Down syndrome (one with autism too) love the Mass - for all the reasons you mentioned. They also have been able to experience a catechism geared to their level of understanding. They will make their first communions next year.
And you are right - I hear much more Bible at each Mass than I ever heard in a Protestant Church service. A reading from the OT, psalms, NT, gospel - all fitted together to give us a sense of the continuity of God's word - as in a recent Sunday which is traditionally devoted to the Eucharist: the OT scripture was about God providing manna in the desert and the NT about Christ offering his body - Take and eat.
It makes so much sense and I feel such a freedom there. I feel like it's not a system built on No's and protest. I know people get upset at my saying anything positive about the church, but I have a hard time restraining myself because of the absolute joy I am experiencing and the changes that are being wrought in me personally and in our family as a whole.
If you are curious - and I only say this because you indicated you are - I recommend RCIA classes at your local Catholic church. Believe me, they are not going to throw a net over you or brainwash you. They only want people who are truly committed to join the church and you can only do it once a year (I think). But RCIA is a place where you can ask questions and find answers from a Catholic source - a priest who's been to seminary and devotes his entire life to service without hope of fame or money - rather than having an evangelical/Protestant tell you what Catholics believe.
Seriously, it does always seem strange in these discussions that Catholics explain what they believe in a calm manner and invariably nonCatholics - some who have never attended a Mass - begin trying to tell them all the reasons they're wrong, often ignoring whatever has been said that already addressed a particular issue.
I have found the Catholic church to be a gentler, more humble atmosphere/experience. I don't feel compelled to argue to "make" someone see my point of view or tell them why they must be wrong. I am only sharing my experience and how grateful I am to have found my way home to the Church where I belong.
I am perfectly happy that evangelicals remain evangelicals. I just can't understand why the hostility and the shunning that goes on.
I am still me. Just a little kinder and gentler than I used to be.
Posted by: barbara | June 11, 2008 3:13 PM
I am not catholic, nor from any other tradition that "prays" to the saints, but I would have to echo with my opinion (for whatever that is worth) that is really isn't any different in practice (as I understand it from my greek orthodox friends)than them asking me to pray for them. Those who have gone before us aren't mediating between us and Christ and the Father any more than Jane Smith in your Bible study is when she prays for travel mercies for you on your up coming road trip. Just because a Catholic or an Orthodox believer asks a Patron saint of travel to pray for them doesn't mean they believe they need a mediator.
I am still confused about the whole role of Mary in other church traditions, but the more I learn the more I really think the Protestant Reformation threw the baby out with the bath water (or the baptismal water?) so to speak.
I really doubt that I'll ever "be" anything besides mainstream protestant. But I really am confused as to why so many protestants are so hostile towards faith traditions that predate our own. Are we really so prideful that we think we have it all right and they all wrong? Are we really so blind as to think other traditions are the only ones who have unbelievers sitting in the pew every week?
In summary, I don't pray to the saints, but I think that those who use the issue as a "gotcha" one to prove catholicism isn't Christianity are really just setting up a straw man argument and largely have no idea what the tradition actually entails.
Posted by: tiffany | June 11, 2008 3:29 PM
Virginia - why do you put God in a box and make Him so small? You allow no room for God to be glorified in His most awesome works of creation - holy men and women who have followed Him without reservation, and with heroic sacrifice and virtue. Catholics give glory to the Creator when they admire and venerate those creatures who, only through His grace and their cooperation with it, lived lives that reflect and magnify Him. There are many passages from Scripture that refute what you say, but perhaps you might take these to prayer ... why does Christ perform His first miracle and thus, "reveal His glory so that His disciples might believe in Him" at the request of His mother on behalf of the couple at Cana? And who, in Revelation, are the white robed people raising the prayers of the believers on earth like incense before the throne of God? I think what Barbara is expressing is the joy of finding the richness and expansiveness of the Faith - a freedom and a clarity that had been missing - to see God in the fullness of His revelation.
Posted by: Anne | June 11, 2008 3:59 PM
Virginia, a couple of things to think about regarding your post:
1. Does Christ demand that we love one another? Is praying for others an act of love?
2. Do we cease to be Christian when we are in heaven? Do we become disconnected, self-absorbed people just moving from glory to glory . . . or do we become even more fully Christian and, therefore, concern ourselves with our brothers and sisters still on their earthly pilgrimages?
3. Does Paul not speak of a "cloud of witnesses"? What are they witnessing if not us and what kind of Christians would they be if they did not ask God to grant us all that we need?
Barbara, I love the saints - the whole topic is one that brought me into the Church. That, and a particular saint who went out of her way to reach down and help me. I've been super-curious about what (already in heaven) saints have reached into your life. ;-)
Posted by: Monica | June 12, 2008 1:18 AM
2. Do we cease to be Christian when we are in heaven? Do we become disconnected, self-absorbed people just moving from glory to glory . . . or do we become even more fully Christian and, therefore, concern ourselves with our brothers and sisters still on their earthly pilgrimages?
oooh, very nicely said. Good point. I must remember that, thank you Monica!
Posted by: Clare | June 12, 2008 9:55 AM
"As I see pictures and statues of saints and read their stories, I am reminded of the virtues, devotion and sacrifice evidenced in their lives. This strengthens my faith and helps me stay the course"
I feel the same. The stories of the saints are such beautiful gifts.
I am a catholic myself. For me I thought your blog was full of wisdom and warmth before your conversion and I still think the same now lol :)
I'm just so pleased that you have found happiness and meaning and a sense of belonging where you are.
Personally, I don't understand all the tension between denominations. I love both catholics and non catholics it's not a problem. If someone says they love Our Lord, who am I to judge the rest?
The rest is between them and their saviour.
Posted by: Suzy | June 12, 2008 1:32 PM
Barbara, I'm so excited about your daughter joining the church... how awesome!!
Posted by: Tracy | June 12, 2008 11:05 PM
Barbara,
Thank you so much for your lengthy response here. It almost gives me pain to read about how the more sensuous worship opened up the service for your children. I would love to have that for our son. I've thought about looking into the possibility of becoming on Oblate, as Kathleen Norris as done, with the Benedictines. I'll think about checking out the RCIA you mention.
I'm so happy Tripp and you are together in this. It seems almost as if it's been a way to simplify life, cut down on the exterior noise, focus. Evangelicals are so often about "the next big thing."
* * * * *
On the Saints---
From G.K. Chesterton's book, Orthodoxy, Chapter 4, "The Ethics of Elfland."
"Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father."
Posted by: Julana | June 13, 2008 9:23 AM
I understand and have always totally agreed with the idea that we should take in the wisdom exhibited by those who have gone before us in walking with God. (Well,ok, perhaps not in the middle of my know-it-all teen years, but that's often par for the course!) I don't know that this is such a contentious point.
I understand the idea that asking the saints to pray for you is akin to asking a living believer to pray for you,at least in theory.
Where it totally breaks down for me is in the idea of praying TO departed saints, or acting in any way as if they have power apart from Christ to effect change in the world. I'm not familiar with where, or even IF, this practice fits in official doctrine, but I have seen that the practice is common and widespread.
To me, praying to Saint so-and-so to achieve this goal, and praying to Saint so-and-so for that personal favor because they're known for granting that sort of wish looks like attempted superstitious manipulation, not interaction with the one true God. Just last week, in fact, someone told me that they had prayed to Saint ___, who is known to affect the weather, because they wanted good weather for their trip.
Posted by: Marian | June 13, 2008 9:06 PM
Marian,
I think a key point to understanding our prayers to saints is that we Catholics are not Calvinists. We don't believe that we are all-evil and, as Calvin put it, "dung." Calvin believed that Jesus' sacrifice "covers" our sins. But as Catholics, we believe that in our born-again experience (which happens through the sacrament of baptism) removes original sin. We believe that God wants to totally transform us to be like him. It's much more "charismatic" than any of the charismatic churches I used to frequent before I converted. Remember how the Apostle Peter marched through the book of Acts? He spoke and people were healed. People touched his garment and would be healed. He was truly "ruling" with God. The saints we reach out to lived radical Christianity. They're not this monolith...the saints. They're individual people that everyone would be edified by getting to know. I recommend reading about Saint Pio, who died in the late 60s. He was declared a saint only 6 years ago. Renzo Allegri wrote a book called Padre Pio: A Man of Hope that you can pick up at any bookstore. This book is not fanciful. It just describes his life. I bet you that once you read that book, you can't help but feel close to this holy man. And I bet you'll also find yourself talking to him. And what have we always been taught about prayer? That it's just "talking" to God. I talk to the saints, and, consequently, the loneliness I used to feel at times has blown away. We are enveloped in the love and support of the triune God, Mary and all the saints and angels.
Posted by: Jaybird | June 16, 2008 11:38 AM
Jaybird,
Thank you for responding.
I completely understand that the people specifically named as Saints in the Catholic church were individual people who led exemplary, godly lives. Meditating on their lives and what they reveal about God is a good thing, and I can even see talking to them as an extension of that meditation. Again, I understand that the idea of asking a departed saint to pray for you is held as something akin to asking a living believer to intercede for you. (I don't know of any specific biblical precedent for this sort of interaction between saints who are departed and people who are alive, but silence on it allows for the possibility.)
What just does not sit right is the idea of asking a departed saint to directly do something for you instead of asking God to do it for you. While on earth, any act of spiritual power through a person is God's power flowing through that person as a flesh and blood representative. It makes sense, and there is obviously biblical precendent, that there are times when God wants to benefit a person in that manner by giving them flesh and blood to see and physically interact with in experiencing an act of his power. But in Heaven, both departed saints and God are spirit. "Saint _________, please heal my sister's ailment" Or, "Saint _________, could you make it sunny for my picnic on Saturday?" is different than ,"Please pray for me." I know that we are to "rule with him" in heaven, but we don't have any specification of exactly what that means, nor do we have anyone who has returned from heaven to tell us. I feel pretty certain that, though we will "reign with him," HE remains God. All bow before Him and worship Him day and night. In the absence of any biblical evidence that I am to actually seek things to be provided from anyone but God, I dare not ask that anything come from anyone but Him. Based on what do I change that? Being an intercessor or a conduit of God's provision is different than being the source of it.
Again, I realize that THAT may not even be a part of official church doctrine. I just don't know. But I know that this sort of belief is very much out there. I know that every Catholic does not participate in every aberration of the faith that is out there, by the way. I don't even assume that most do. I know Catholics who are wonderful, sincere believers and followers of Jesus. I love them as sisters and brothers in faith, and don't bother to focus on the differences in practice. Their adoration and talking to a Saint is my meditiation on and identification with the life of a godly person who has led an exemplary life before me. There are some traditionally Catholic practices which I would like to incorporate more into my life.
I'm not coming from hostility at all. What sometimes gets me irritated and, wrongly, in combative mode, though, are the political style comparisons: Pointing out a flaw in The Other Side and holding that up as representative of the entire body, and then immediately holding up the most perfect, admirable, glowing example of practice on My Side as contrast. I think that's been the main problem with these discussions. Seeing that kind of portrayal in a post or comment gets the knee-jerk defensive mechanism going to do the same thing. We can't help having our perceptions shaped by what we have seen and experienced of the massive, wordlwide church, but we can keep our portrayals open to the other realities of practice and keep our comparisons balanced.
I'm not sure why the discussion of Calvinism. I'm not a Calvinist, either. I believe (as has every church I've ever attended)that, apart from Christ, we are lost in our sin and spearated from God. By identifying with Christ, who took our sins upon him, in his death, burial and resurrection, sin's power over us is broken. I am no longer a slave to sin. Yes, I/we also "believe that God wants to totally transform us to be like him." We can be transformed and grow to become in actual habit and practice what we now already are positionally in Christ. We are both sanctified and being sanctified at the same time. In God's timing (and often, but not always, to the extent that we cooperate with God in his transformation of us), yes, we can "rule with God" and be a conduit of his power on earth. Absolutely. Yes. Peter is a great example of this, as are many people designated at Saints by the Catholic church, as are others. That does not mean that they were fully perfected on earth. Paul gives us a glimpse of his struggle with the tyrannical leftover habits of sin in his, "Why do I do what I don't want to do?... Who will free me from thios nody of death?" passage.
On what do you base your assumptions about the nature of believers reigning with God in heaven?
(That's a real question, not a rhetorical jab... I know you can't read tone!)
Sorry, Barbara, for the long one here. I'm WAY out of time, so please pardon the lack of edit!
Posted by: Marian | June 17, 2008 12:58 PM
