March 16, 2009 8:36 AM
Spelling/grammar pet peeves? Vent here.
From a reader who wishes to remain - understandably - anonymous:Barbara -Can we all say ouch? While I might have chosen to soften the delivery, I must say I agree with the frustration and the concern over anyone who is lacking in basic grammar/spelling skills teaching the next generation - either at home or in schools.
I thought I'd pop my head into your inbox with a topic that I would blog about myself if I were the type to blog, which I'm not :)
It may seem trite in the midst of all that is going on the world right now, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this subject:
What do you have to say about the degeneration of written communication in this country? When I see homeschooling mothers blogging with horrendous grammar and composition, and then complaining about people who assert they are not competent to teach their own children, I want to shout, "Read your own writing! Does it inspire confidence?!" When Macy's has a Valentine's Day advertising campaign with the catch phrase "Who Do You Love?" and no one can seem to use an apostrophe correctly, sometimes I just want to stab out my eyes! This stuff is all over the place, from menus to billboards. Does it drive you as crazy as it drives me?
Moms - we all need to call ourselves to the highest standard. If you need to brush up on these simple matters, I recommend the gold standard: The Elements of Style - many used copies available at Amazon or PaperbackSwap (which you can read about and join here to start getting books for free) - or check your local library. Fifty-six pages of concise, clear - and fun - reading which will help make your writing and speech flawless.
Free help available online: Guide to Grammar and Writing
Is a call to correct grammar trivial or unimportant? Not at all. In order to give our children the best possible chance to succeed, we have to call ourselves to the highest standard.
I like what Elisabeth Elliot says: Each day take something you should be doing and start doing it; take something you shouldn't be doing and stop doing it. This can include ANYTHING: biting nails, overeating, yelling at your kids, spending too much time on the computer, procrastinating - and even confusing its and it's.
Yes, the misuse of it's and its happens to be my pet peeve. (helpful quiz here)
Oh, and telling kids: You did good. Very wrong - You did well is correct English.
And am I the only person who hates You guys this and You guys that? Very tacky 0 especially when spoken by the President of the United States.
What are your pet peeves? Feel free to vent.
Comments
This is funny. And I do have to agree, although I hope that moms who are homeschooling learn better grammar as they go along. I know that I make mistakes, but the obvious errors drive me nuts. I mentioned to the barrista at my favorite coffee shop the other day that the sign which said "cold one's in back" was punctuated incorrectly (and it wasn't referring to one cold "one" that was in the back - it was supposed to signify a plural "ones"). I could tell that she really didn't know what I was talking about.
One that I know I use wrongly but can't seem to stop is "lay" and "lie." I KNOW the right ways to use them, but wrong usage is so common that I can't seem to make my mouth form it correctly. So frustrating! :)
Have you seen Grammar Girl(grammar.quickanddirtytips.com)? Shannon over at Rocks in My Dryer featured her a while back (Shannon's a grammar-geek, too). I also like the book Eats, Shoots & Leaves.
Posted by: Lucy | March 16, 2009 9:36 AM
IRREGARDLESS!!!
I hate that one...my coworker uses it all the time. But lest I appear too haughty, I'll have a go at that quiz you linked to.
Thanks!
Posted by: Libby | March 16, 2009 9:49 AM
I find these kind of vents petty and snobby. I am almost scared to write this post since no doubt something will be misspelled or my grammar will be wrong. Not everyone has the privilege of a good education. Some have to write in a second language. Others deal with lower IQs or learning disabilities. Still, everyone has a voice that wants to be heard. I would hate to only read from those that have perfected grammar and spelling.
It was my impression that even best selling authors have editors and proof readers to help them with flow, grammar and spelling. When persons blog or interact on discussion boards it may not be their plan to submit their writing to the same level of critique as a school paper or work report. Maybe they just want to share their thoughts as if they were speaking with a friend.
The written word and the mediums it uses are forever changing. I don't want to silence the masses if they cannot write up to certain standards. I want to hear what others have to say.
BTW it can be difficult for some to write coherently when you have 5 kids interrupting you.
[Note from Barbara: Joy, you are definitely misreading it you think I am petty or snobby or elitist. What I am all about is encouraging mothers to continually call themselves to a higher standard - and equipping them to do so easily. Making excuses takes more time and energy than making improvements. The quiz I linked to would take less time than writing a rebuttal, after all.]
Posted by: Joy | March 16, 2009 10:18 AM
I'm always striving to write correctly when I type an email or post on a message board. I don't speak computer lingo very well. (smile). Yes, it bothers me but I've gotten used to it. It's just so much easier to read when people capitalize the first word of the sentence, capitalize I instead of writing i. Etc, etc, etc.
I'm not looking for perfection in writing. Lord knows that I wouldn't be able to live up to it either. Just the basics of proper writing.
Also, it makes me wonder if our society has just been dumbed way down. This is not college level. This should be elementary school level.
Yes, I agree that I tend to write as if I'm speaking to friends. Hmmm.
Yikes! Now I'm too busy checking to see if I'm grammatically correct! LOL!! Oh well...
[Note from Barbara: I actually edit for spelling before publishing comments. Editors help writers look better - and I understand you all are very busy and I'm fortunate you have time to read and comment here. I don't judge anyone's writing on the fly :)]
Posted by: Sue from Buffalo | March 16, 2009 11:01 AM
A big hearty Amen!
Posted by: Darleen Creath | March 16, 2009 11:27 AM
Then and than confusion is my pet peeve!
Posted by: Jennie Lou | March 16, 2009 11:32 AM
Revert back.
Revert means "to go back." One cannot "go back back." My freshman English teacher would go crazy over that one.
Posted by: Shannon | March 16, 2009 12:27 PM
I know that I am not perfect with grammar myself. I'm not likely to EVER get lay/lie straight! Yet there are those things that just grate on your ears a bit...
Ever since someone pointed out to me our frequent misuse of the word "got", I can't help but notice it. "You've got mail" is incorrect. "You have mail" is correct. "I've got two" is incorrect. "I have two," or even, "I've two" is correct. Even my son's writing text has a chapter called, "Opinions: You've got them!"
Using "good" where "well" belongs is the most noticeable misuse of an adjective as an adverb, but we also "do bad" on tests, and so on. We've become so used to some of our bad grammar that good grammar sounds wrong, or at least too formal! "How are you?" "I'm well." Cue the British accent.
A local favorite: "At" at the end of a sentence. "Where's that at?"
We DO have a vacancy in our language for a distinct plural "you". Southerners have it covered with "y'all", and a more awkward "you all" could be adapted for northerners. Other than that, we're stuck with "you guys" when you want to be clear that you're speaking to a group of "you" in daily life! "You students" or "you British" sounds almost accusatory. Still, a President should opt for more formal speech. I'm sympathetic in our linguistic quandary, but "You guys" just doesn't cut it for a President! And, hey, isn't he being sexist there? Should it not be "you guys and gals"? Just wondering...
Posted by: Marian | March 16, 2009 1:41 PM
Marian, I was going to mention the lack of plural you as well.
I guess the president could rely on "My fellow Americans" though I will admit that would start to get old after a few uses.
Posted by: Lauren | March 16, 2009 2:04 PM
I am also irked by improper use of basic grammar. One of my pet peeves (besides what you and commenters have mentioned) is "their," "they're," and "there."
Another of my pet peeves is the use of the word "gender" when referring to someone's sex.
Posted by: Courageous Grace | March 16, 2009 2:28 PM
Grammar and usage boo-boos that drive me crazy:
"I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less." Argh! If you could care less then that means you care at least a little.
"Different than" instead of "different from." This gets used all the time, even in advertising. You can be bigger than something, or smaller than something. But you can't be different than something. You can only be different "from" something.
Posted by: Amy K. | March 16, 2009 3:35 PM
I don't think the moms are any worse than the teachers and staff at the many schools where I have sent my kids. They range from the public schools to the expensive, selective independent schools to Catholic schools. There is not a week that goes by without some misspelling, word misuse, grammatical mistake or word left out in some piece of school correspondence.
My kids learned to write during the time when the push was for them to get those thoughts down on paper without worrying about those things. The editing can come later. For mine, all boys, that was a good idea as they hated to write, and getting anything written was the big obstacle. And they did learn the rules of grammar later, doing well on those sections of the SATs and other standardized tests.
I think the internet and blogging has been such a wonderful development as we can share our ideas and lives. I would not want anyone to feel any self consciousness in expressing themselves. However, as in all areas of homeschooling, there may come a point where the parent may be weak enough in a subject that s/he needs to get help and work by the book to give the child the proper instruction. For those who homeschool high school kids, it often comes in the maths and sciences, especially if you are hoping for placement in selective college for your child. That is where I have seen a gap in some very bright kids.
Posted by: Cath Young | March 16, 2009 3:49 PM
I'm a high school English teacher, so I have many grammatical peeves. A longstanding one is Southerners who can't spell "y'all." Why would ANYONE think that "you all" could possibly be reduced to "ya'll"? Argh!
And the various abuses of there/their/they're and your/you're.
Whoops, that was a fragment!
Posted by: mary kathryn | March 16, 2009 4:56 PM
This is addressed to everyone who feels inadequate at spelling and grammar and therefore takes offense at calls for better writing online.
Everyone makes mistakes, and very few people have absolutely perfect spelling and grammar. Most people DO write in a casual, conversational style online, and do expect you to do the same. Nine times out of ten, if someone is making a big deal over a small error, that person is really angry that he has just been proven wrong about something and is grasping at straws.
However, there is a real problem with poor writing online. There are people out there who use acronyms and abbreviations and slang to the point where anyone over 12 cannot understand them. There are people who don't seem to know that their keyboard has a shift key, and never use punctuation or line breaks at all. There are people who make very basic mistakes over and over and refuse to learn (like adding an apostrophe to every single word that ends in 's'). There are people who use common idioms without having any clue what they mean, and so write them in ways that make no sense whatsoever. (Like saying "for all intensive purposes." Are your purposes really intensive? Or did you mean, "for all intents and purposes"?)
Keep in mind that clear, concise language is necessary for clear, concise thought. Read 1984 for some thoughts on how language affects reality! (Or, if you're really interested, get your hands on an issue of The Underground Grammarian!) Barbara has shown us plenty of examples of the left twisting language in order to change minds; how can our thinking not become muddled when we immerse ourselves in barely decipherable writing day in and day out?
Again, no one expects perfection, but if you feel that your writing is sub-par, work on improving! Take care to use capital letters and punctuation correctly, and brush up on the basic rules. If you don't know how to spell a word, use spell-check! (Firefox will spell-check everything you write online!) If you can do that, you can rest easy that you are not one of the ones driving everyone else crazy.
[Michelle - thanks for my laugh of the day! I burst out laughing so hard at "all intensive purposes" that Maddy came running in to see what was wrong (I'd been grouchy at dinner). Love your passion! And it's good to hear from you after a while,]
Posted by: Michelle Potter | March 16, 2009 6:07 PM
Ok. Pet peeve: When I hear "Hey Guys!" on the morning shows. Over and over and over. I guess they're trying to show how down-to-earth they really are. LOL.
Here's what drives the 14 year old daughter of my best friend crazy: When I write something on her Facebook page that uses computer lingo. (And I know precious little of it. LOL!!) I think I wrote LOL or ROTFLOL (rolling on the floor laughing out loud). She thought it was terrible that a person of my age (46) should even know that stuff.
Major grin!! (and LOL!!!)
Posted by: Sue from Buffalo | March 16, 2009 7:20 PM
It isn't a matter of being petty or snobby. There are all kinds of resources that can be availed by anyone. I, too, cringe when I read blogs of homeschooling moms who use poor grammar, e.g., "My son and me went to the store..." or use "I" instead of "me." One mom of a homeschooling family uses "ect" for "etc." I also wince when I see every plural word written with an apostrophe. I'm with Mary Kathryn: Using "your" for "you're" sends me around the bend. Or, how 'bout the ellipses that go on for about fifteen dots?
I agree that writing and language change, but it is imperative that the reader understands what is being written. Punctuation and correct spelling make that possible. I applaud the efforts of blog writers, and appreciate the notion that writing is making a comeback. However, it would be nice if said blogs weren't rife with misspellings and grammatical errors.
Cathy
PS By way of illustration, here is a fine example (see sentence below) of why punctuation matters.
Without punctuation: "Slow children crossing." With punctuation: Slow, children crossing." There IS a difference.
Posted by: Cathy | March 16, 2009 11:01 PM
The one that makes me go GRRRR all the time is when I hear someone say "there's lots". People who should know better, newscasters for example, say it all the time.
"There is a lot" "There's a lot", or, "There are lots". "There's lots" is completely incorrect.
Posted by: carrien (she laughs at the days) | March 17, 2009 2:41 PM
What drives me crazy? All of it....
--any misuse of apostrophes
--comma splices
--misuse of loose/lose and do/due (you'd be surprised how common these are)
--commas used as ellipses (shudder)
--as others have mentioned, inability to use capital letters and punctuation at all, though in my experience this is more of a message board thing
--any grammatical error which makes it difficult or impossible to understand the writer's meaning
I don't have a problem with colloquialisms (good to know this will be spellchecked for me) or fragments used for stylistic reasons.
If people want others to read their blogs, they need to make an effort with grammar and punctuation. I understand about those who speak English as a second language--these errors tend to be specific types of mistakes and tend more towards the stylistically uncommon than the incorrect. And I understand being busy or distracted; I've been known to type one-handed while breastfeeding, and I can't always make out the difference between an a and an s on my screen. I just try to employ an economy of words under such circumstances, and I don't let it make me a lazy typist.
Is anyone else annoyed about poorly punctuated worship songs, too? I ranted on that a bit ago:
http://reconciledtogod.blogspot.com/2009/02/theology-and-punctuation.html
Posted by: ycw | March 17, 2009 3:38 PM
There are many, but I'll settle for the top few:
1. Not knowing the difference between fewer and less. (Could someone please send a nationwide memo to grocery stores that the sign should read, "Ten Items or Fewer?")
2. The phrase "one of the only." I assume people who use this mean "one of the few," because "one of the only" is meaningless.
3. Saying "try and" instead of "try to." ("I will try and get there early" vs. "I will try to get there early.")
4. Putting the word "only" in the wrong place. It should be placed in front of the word it is modifying. "I will eat only one cookie," not "I will only eat one cookie."
These are not in order; they annoy me fairly equally.
Posted by: Becky | March 17, 2009 6:56 PM
Curriculums!
Posted by: kathleen | March 17, 2009 10:30 PM
Hi Barbara,
You haven't presented this is a snobby way, but the note written to you did come off judgmental in an unhelpful way. It is one thing to care about people and desire the best for them, but to get worked up and angry about grammer just for grammar's sake is kind of mean and does sound snobby. I grew up around the world and speak other languages, but there are some English words I have trouble with to this day. As a mother of preschoolers, I am working on it. I knew a number of friends in college struggling so much with grammar they were afraid to write--they are the ones who would read this post and then decide to quit blogging because they cannot remember whether to use me or I or to when to use lay and when to use lie. I definitely (there's one of my words I hope I spelled correctly) see this as something worth posting about as something to work on. Though I see it very petty to have a hang up about it unless there is obvious laziness by a person you know can do better. I adore language differences, and though I would never want to be heard uttering the word "y'all", I am still able to find it cute when southerners say it, and I live in the south now. I also make a point not to say "ain't", but it is in the dictionary now. I hope I'm not judged based on typos and the few words I learned to spell incorrectly, when written informally. I believe the grammar police need to find something better to dwell on unless they are willing to tutor those they are picking on. We all have traits that annoy others and should see people more important than their mistakes.
Posted by: Angela | March 17, 2009 10:41 PM
Angela and Joy,
I am the writer of the original note. I wrote it directly to Barbara because I wanted to hear the opinion of a writer whom I respect on what I consider to be the abysmal state of language in our country. I did not compose the note for general consumption; I figured Barbara would be able to read it and not to take offense. When she expressed interest in publishing it, I gave the OK and didn't bother to compose another. Maybe that was a mistake. My intent was not to solicit a vent, though it doesn't bother me that Barbara did; it is, after all, her blog. I did acknowledge that the topic might seem trite.
However, I am gravely concerned about the degenerating ability of the average citizen to communicate. It appalls me when billboards, commercials, menus, and even newspapers saturate our culture with sloppy communication. It bothers me when other homeschooling mothers write about the right and ability of parents to educate their own children and then do not bother to proofread the texts in which they make those points. Such carelessness gives the world a bad impression of homeschoolers. Moreover, if the mistakes they make are ingrained errors (as opposed to typos), then their children will likely learn those same errors.
I do not expect perfection from others and make no claim of perfection myself. Feel free to comb this and other comments of mine for errors. Better yet, let me know what you find, so that I can correct errors of which I am unaware. I know that my writing has decreased in quality since I left school and do not write as often as I used to. This is why I will have a grammar textbook firmly in hand when I begin teaching my own children; I will be relearning much myself. If I take upon myself the responsibilty to teach the next generation how to communicate, I need to be able to do so, too.
I don't think I need to be "willing to tutor" everyone, as Angela suggests. Adults need to take responsibility for themselves. I was taught that one's writing as a reflection of oneself. If I want my audience to listen, to understand, and to respect (though not necessarily agree with) what I have to say, it is my responsibility to write well. This is similar to the fact that, as Barbara has pointed out, our physical appearance influences the way others perceive us. We do not all have the same starting materials, but we all have the same responsibility. No one is perfect, but everyone can make an effort.
Language is the means by which humans think, even in our own minds. When our society is no longer able to speak and to write clearly, we will no longer be able to think clearly. I lament that our standards have dropped so far.
[Note from Barbara: Marisa, I didn't intend it as soliciting a vent either. I saw it as a way to remind us to call ourselves to a higher standard - which is why I quoted Elisabeth Elliot. Backlash almost always takes me by surprise :)]
Posted by: Marisa | March 18, 2009 3:33 PM
