March 23, 2009 8:43 AM
Teen dating, courtship - your thoughts, plans, experience?
On Facebook, when it comes to noting your relationship status, there's an option that says "It's complicated" That's how I feel when moms ask me to comment on Tripp's and my views on teenage dating and courtship.
Ten years ago, it wasn't complicated. My answer as an evangelical homeschooling mom would have been swift and sure: courtship was the only way. Courtship as defined in the strictest homeschool sense - forbidding any special relationships with the opposite sex until our children were of marriageable age. I was convinced that by bringing our kids up with this ethic we could expect them to fulfill our vision of how things should be.
Today I am more humble.
My guess is that there are many moms out there just as convinced as I was 10 years ago that I could forge the blissful reality I planned for my kids. My guess is that most - no matter how many children they have - have not yet been broken by parenthood.
Because as moms of grown-up kids will tell you, parenthood has a way of breaking you, doesn't it? And that's a good thing, isn't it? I mean, God must find it more difficult to speak to us when we think we are whole.
It's in that spirit - as a mom who once had all the answers - thinking that bringing up kids could be like following a recipe with predictable results - that I spark a give-and-take discussion where moms of all levels of experience can share their vision for navigating the teen years, but where experienced moms (and dads) might offer their real life experience.
Right now, we have five children still at home 8-17. We have seven children 19-39. And while three of those reached adulthood before becoming romantically involved, four of them didn't.
Our oldest daughter has been married for 20 years to her high school sweetheart, whom we've known since fifth grade. They have six children under 17 and are very strong proponents of the courtship model. Our second daughter met and married her husband when she was 22. Our oldest son had several crushes through his teen years, but shortly after our move fell in love with a Virginia girl, asked her father's permission to court her and did so for a few years before their marriage almost three years ago. Our second son went prodigal at 18 - with the precipitating crisis a very mixed-up girl - but came home last fall to regroup and mend fences. Our third son met his sweetheart in high school and they have carried out a long distance romance for five years at separate colleges. On May 22 they will marry and begin to spend every day together.
My point in recounting these different scenarios is this: in every instance it was not about Tripp's and my will for our children's lives, but about God's. Beneath the one-sentence summaries of each of their dating/courtship stories is a subtext of parenting joy and sorrow, and many moments of surrender as we Tripp and I grew as parents to learn that while our job was to build a foundation, we could not control the outcome.
We also have learned - as in many other life issues - that extra-biblical "programs" that prescribe how our families should look, act, and experience life can become crippling - while causing deep, unnecessary division in the Body of Christ. As flawed human beings we can take even the best-intentioned advice, and in implementing it use it as a basis to feel superior to and judgmental of others.
What they need to know is that even famous homeschool icons have found it impossible to implement the courtship model perfectly. They just don't talk about it.
The problem with the courtship model is that it is unrealistic to think that it will work for every child and every family. Like all rigid models, there is no room for God to do anything outside the limits we have set (we seem to always forget the Bible stories which demonstrate that His ways are not our ways). Because the reality is that romantic feelings/attraction to the opposite sex really do occur in the teen years, in some ways with some kids we may be inviting emotional dysfunction as they have to deny/hide/bury their feelings rather than having some help navigating them while they are still under our wings.
God built us with a biological timetable which is good because he made it. Our culture has prolonged adolescence and postponed marriage/family for a ridiculously long amount of time. Christian parents go along with this practice, expecting their kids to go to college before marriage while avoiding romance and relationship until 22 or 23. While this may work for some individuals, it sets up others for whom God may have different plans for dysfunction and failure
I once interviewed couples who'd been married 50 years or more on the secrets of their success. They'd married young. They'd married quickly. They'd married simply. And they'd married poor, committed to building their lives together.
Spending time with those couples really changed my outlook, causing me
to question the ridiculous corner we've painted ourselves into in our
culture.
Consider the crazy ethic in our culture that a man and a woman should be financially secure before marriage. Why? My oldest daughter and her husband married at 19. Together, they worked to put him through college. Perhaps it was that experience that taught them to make good decisions about money - today they are financially secure.
People were aghast that we gave our blessing to them to marry. Today we can only say how happy we are we did.
I don't pretend that my musings are comprehensive or in any way the final word on this subject. I continue as a parent to be taken by surprise every day. I am hoping that many moms will offer their own experience and wisdom here. For moms still in the visionary years, I hope you will keep an open mind because when rigid plans meet reality, the effects can be devastating.
And as in all things family, the most important thing is love.
Posted in Homeschooling, Mothering, Teens and Tweens | Permalink
Comments
My husband and I did things the wrong way. We got pregnant before we got married. We were not exactly a glowing example of a young Christian couple. Even so, we have a strong marriage and family, but I would not recommend other people take our path.
However, we have several dear friends who did things the right way. One great example are our friends Heather and Clint.
They met in highschool, but had no real plans to date. Then God spoke to their hearts that they were to marry and be together. They began dating their junior year of highschool and married the spring after graduation. Their parents and church elders protested quite a bit over their age, but they followed God's plan, not outside forces.
At the time this caused great conflict within their family. I don't advocate children ignoring their parents' counsel, but in this case their parents were telling the young couple to ignore God. I think in a case such as that they young couple should listen to God.
Anyways, 5 years later they are still happily married. They own their home, the young man is finished with college and working, and they have a beautiful daughter and are praying that they are blessed with many more children. They have remained strong Christians and do all that they can to share Christ.
They are really an inspiration.
I'm not sure this would be the case had they followed their parents advice and attempted to remain chaste for an additional 4 years until they were finished with college. Perhaps they would have been fine, but I really think that sets people up for failure. If a couple is ready for marriage at 19, they should marry.
I think we should encourage our children and teach them how to manage a home so that they are ready at 19 to marry, regardless of if they actually end up finding someone to marry at such an age. Our society,even within Christian homes, supports extending adolescence until 30, and I think this has resulted in a world of problems for those in their 20's.
Posted by: Lauren | March 23, 2009 11:08 AM
Barbara- I suppose I am still in the visionary process. I had barely even heard of courtship until right before and after my husband and I were married, and we had several friends who had voluntarily practiced courtship after they had found Christ. I have not seen it modeled much, and only know what I have read... and what I have read about courtship is a variety of stories. Not all of them fit a perfect model. One family had a 15 year old daughter who was interested in a young man a few years older. After a year, the family allowed them to spend only supervised time together, and since she was mature for her age, they ended up marrying when she was 18.
So, I guess my thoughts are, generally speaking, that it's dangerous to allow teens to go out and spend oodles of time *alone* with the opposite sex...and then tell them that they aren't anywhere near ready for marriage because they need a college degree first. Also generally speaking, the younger the couple, the more supervised they need to be.
I agree with what you wrote Barbara, about God's timing for puberty and being attracted to the opposite sex being just the right timing. How could he make a mistake? It's us humans that are making the mistakes by prolonging their childhood and telling them they are too young for marriage. Ideally, like Lauren said, we should prepare them for marriage young...
I hate what dating does to teens when there is a break up. I think it's entirely possible to get emotionally bonded ( even if not physically) to someone of the opposite sex, and then get dumped... and this sometimes causes suicides. I remember the feeling of getting dumped in high school... It completely paralyzed me. This emotional and/or physical bonding of a " dating" couple is what I think I am aiming to avoid with my teens. I intend to tell them about the dangers of the typical dating game....and probably share the more idealistic ideas about courtship before they hit puberty. Meaning,that we'll probably lay out the best model prior to puberty, and then have to follow God's leading to see where the process needs to be tweaked.
Generally speaking, as with anything, we can lay the groundwork in prayer...
Looking forward to your other responses...
Posted by: Lisa | March 23, 2009 11:53 AM
My daughter is 13, nearly 14, and the other day she brought up dating. At this point she doesn't have anyone in particular in mind, but she sees all her friends "dating" (they don't really go out much, just declare the relationship to all their friends) and she expects to do the same. When I told her I didn't want her to date yet, I think she's too young and I prefer the concept of courtship, well, let's just say she didn't agree.
My problem is I feel ill-equipped to introduce the concept to her. I wasn't raised in a Christian home and I haven't learned very much about how courtship works in this day and age. Are there any books or articles you could recommend?
Posted by: Christina | March 23, 2009 12:25 PM
Having grown up in circles where courtship (if not betrothal) were mandatory, I have seen a lot, good and bad.
The courtship idea works well when it's not taken too terribly seriously: if a young couple are attracted to each other (or at least one way) and they get their parents' advice before moving too far along and seek purity with some level of accountability. It works well only if there is already a good parent/child relationship and everyone generally has the same expectations.
When parents try to use it to control their adult children's lives, it gets really, really ugly. I told my parents that I would ask them their opinion once, and after that they better keep their mouth shut and not subject me to the back-and-forthing ("Oh, it's God's Will! We're So Excited! Oh, We're Nervous! It's Not God's Will Anymore!) I had seen happen to others.
Also the stricter courtship models put way too much pressure on a relationship too soon. My husband tells of a friend who, after months of seeking a father's approval, would open his courting of the young lady by asking her to write a paper on her interpretation of wifely submission. (Last time we heard, he was still single.) Some courtship models seem to promote the following progression: Distant Acquaintanceship-->Mysterious Revelation-->Parental Approval (exchange of position papers)-->Courtship (more exchange of position papers)-->Engagement (some emotional involvement is now allowed, though not too much)--> Marriage (some physical contact is presumably now involved, although we're still rather horrified at the thought). Real relationships do not happen like this; people need time to get acquainted and even attached without pressure to decide on marriage from the get-go.
What really happened to me was a long-distance friendship grew very close, and my parents more-or-less asked his intentions, whereupon he discovered he had intentions, and we got married several months later. I'm grateful now for my parents' intervention (otherwise we might have just kept arguing and never gotten around to getting married) but I never would have trusted them with it if I didn't already have a good relationship with them.
As for what we're going to tell our children (now four and fortunately far too small for immediate concern), I think we hope to keep a good relationship with them, teach them discernment of character through literature, encourage them to find purpose in their life, and just see how God leads them.
Posted by: Queen of Carrots | March 23, 2009 12:26 PM
Thank you SO much for sharing this! I met my husband when I was 14. It was love at first sight for him. I wanted to marry him when I was 18. My parents made me wait until I was 20. We've been married for 11 years and sometimes we still say: "Man, wouldn't it have been great if we'd been allowed to get married when we were teenagers?" LOL! But it's true: teenagers really can fall in love. Even 20 is still very young. We were broke but we had each other. That was all that mattered.
Posted by: Elizabeth Esther | March 23, 2009 12:38 PM
One more thing . . . Seeing a previous poster's comment on the "typical dating game" reminded me that I have often wondered if courtship is written to remedy problems of a generation ago and makes little sense in at least some areas of modern culture. Whether committed to courtship or not, very few people I knew my age (30 now) officially "dated". They were "just friends," and then they turned up engaged. I'm sure the dangers of excessive emotional and physical involvement are still just as great, but I think the real danger now is in avoiding commitment altogether. Courtship, by setting the initial bar so high, can make commitment even easier to dodge altogether. Perhaps we may instead need parents who are helping their children navigate the mystifying landscape of "friends" and willing to point out: "Hey, what *about* that friend? Don't you think there's some potential there?"
Posted by: Queen of Carrots | March 23, 2009 12:38 PM
I was a self-centered heathen during my high school days and didn’t even consider “dating” until my first day of college. I “dated” (I am using the quotes because I am using a very loose definition of the word. Going out to dinner with an unrelated person of the opposite sex and picking up the tab is a “date”) two different females over a three month time frame.
I was 18 and the next girl I dated (No quotes, romantic intentions fully engaged) I dated for three years. At that point my father gave me these insightful words of wisdom, “If she hasn’t run from you screaming for her dear life by now, she probably is the only one in the world that won’t so please marry her so I can get you out of the house” (Loved dear old dad, he was very inspirational). We were engaged for a year so both she and I could complete our degrees. It hadn’t been but a few days after her graduation that we were married. In a few months that will have been twenty years ago.
I am old school and did it old school. Asked her dad and he said yes (I think the swift elbow to his ribs from my mother-in law may have been an influencing factor in his decision). Got down on one knee while wearing my grandfather’s tails and then whisked her away to the last fraternity/sorority formal that either one of us would be attending.
I have been told many times that I am a dinosaur so this situation may have gone the way of my dear friend the Dodo.
Posted by: Resident Old Married Man | March 23, 2009 1:17 PM
I am a product of very conservative parents, and while I recall being annoyed at the age limitation, I appreciate their wisdom in retrospect. What the dating restriction did for me was to promote healthy, unattached relationships in high school, which did more to teach me about sexual respect than trying to date too early. I learned how to interact with both male and female friends and how to control teenage impulses without complicating my life with a "dating relationship." Oh sure, I had my share of dreams of romance, but they were allowed to be pure and free. (Nothing against teenage romance at all, and I believe is can be real. I'm just saying that in modern culture we fight a lot of moral battles, and teens should not feel pressured to face these.)
My first kiss was in college, 2 weeks after I turned 18, dated for 6 years, and have now been married for 3 1/2 years with 2 children so far. We "grew up" together, which I think is a big secret to longevity. We did not have completely established separate lives that we had to learn to merge; rather we started from ground and are building up from a common foundation.
A common Christian mindset toward dating is that dating is part of the discernment process for marriage. If we look at dating in that light then "courtship" is an appropriate mentality for those of age/state to marry. Beyond the fun, getting-to-know-you stage lies a point at which one must ask themselves "could I ever marry this person?" For a teen that's a theoretical that perhaps only serves to remind them of commitment to purity. Everyone must discern their vocation, and that can happen regardless of age.
There is so much I could say, I am trying to be concise and hope that I am being clear. Discernment happens at all ages, but it is an active process. Both the parents AND the children should be actively praying for the child's vocation, and for wisdom and guidance toward His will.
Posted by: Kate | March 23, 2009 1:51 PM
I love the finding of your 50 year marriage interviews! My husband and I are going on 15 years of marriage and meet that criteria. We're changed, sure. We've grown. But we're a team.
Posted by: Amanda | March 23, 2009 2:20 PM
I'll be honest, I do not understand the courtship model. At all. I don't see any real benefits, only potential for heartache.
I was engaged at 18 to a boy I adored. Then God introduced me to the man I later married. I felt inspired to cut the other relationship off, and foster this one. Surprise! It was the best decision I ever made.
My parents were worried because I was 19. (My oldest sister got married at 19, too, but divorced at 22) So they just kept telling me that if I ever felt bad about it, I could say no, even at the marriage altar, and they'd support my decision. Because they recognized that my marriage was my decision to make.
God gives us children as a stewardship, but he expects us to raise them to Him. Not to our own ideals. And just because they haven't yet married does not mean that only their parents are entitled to inspiration regarding their lives. We're parents--not God--and we should raise them to look to God as the ultimate giver of answers.
As far as what I want for my kids (who are both under 3), I'll look to my leaders. I'm LDS (Mormon), and the prophet and President of our church calls for no dating or exclusive relationships before 16, and then group dates until an individual is ready for marriage. At that point, dating in pairs is encouraged.
I think that's a reasonable model. But more importantly, I'm determined to teach my children by example how to participate in a healthy relationship.
Posted by: Emily C | March 23, 2009 2:41 PM
Thank you so much for this post.
I grew up in a home with these rules:
No dating until I was 16.
No exclusive dating until I graduated from HS.
I think these are generally good rules to have. I think it is also good to have flexibility (as you mentioned with your children).
What really makes the difference with the concept of courtship or these rules, is that children know the principles behind them.
It's important to instill in our children why there should be appropriate behavior, appropriate expressions of affection, etc.
If that is the case, children will probably make wise decisions for themselves.
I think it's dangerous to not talk to girls especially (but boys also), about the consequences psychologically of physical dating relationships.
Posted by: ruby | March 23, 2009 2:54 PM
I am terrified to go through the dating/courting scene with my children. I agree with you so much Barbara, about people waiting too long to get married, but I do have one concern. I know that the man I married when I was "older" -25 years old- was a very different person than the man I would have married when I was 19. I had a lot of growing up to do yet and I actually rather enjoyed my time being single, not because I didn't want to get married, but because I had many adventures and experiences that I would not have had if I had gotten married young.
I really agree with Queen of Carrot's post above. My own experiences with courtship are honestly too painful and complex to write about here. I'll just say that it ended with me having to defy my father (although not my mother) and ignore his "words from God." It was so much pressure and we did not have a good enough relationship to make courtship work. In fact, it almost ended my relationship with my father. Many years (and a loving and humble husband) have brought much healing. My earlier experiences involved intense feelings that were not allowed to be explored, discussed or worked through, which resulted in lots of foolish choices on my part and lots of pain for myself, my parents and the young man. I do not hold my parents at fault at all though, because they were only trying their hardest to protect me from the mistakes and pain they had experienced. Unfortunately for all of us, they were caught up in an overly rigid and controlling application of semi-Biblical teaching.
I have been happily married for nine years now and have three children. I hope that I (and my husband, whose experiences were vastly different from mine, except that his brush with courtship was negative, too!) can remain open to God's leading with each child. My only strongly held desire is that they keep their hearts (and bodies) pure. And yet, I strongly believe that we learn just as much from our failures as we do from our successes. What I really hope for myself is that I will forgive my children and love them no matter what mistakes they make. And I hope they will forgive me. Learning to trust God's love and to not control my children is the hardest thing for me. But it is what I must do.
I know lots of people who courted and are happy and lots of people who dated and are happy. I do think it is perilous to ignore the intensity of teen emotions and that to expect young people who are in relationships to stay chaste for years at a time is stupid. I don't think there is one right way for everyone. But as someone whose primary experience was courtship that was not well-implemented (and dating that was all secretive and destructive), I know I will handle my children's romantic relationships far differently than my parents did.
Posted by: Lucy | March 23, 2009 3:18 PM
There is a school of thought, that originated with Pope John Paul II, called "The Theology of the Body". Most people are familiar with the phrase, but the theology itself is something that really requires some study to be understood.
There is so much more to our relationships than we can see through the lens of our humanity. What we are in every aspect starts with God. His image is reflected in every part of our being and His image is one of relationship.
Teaching our children about relationships begins with our own love and fidelity within our families.
There are some wonderful resources available. I have read some of them, and in studying "The Theology of the Body for Teens" by Jason Evert,
I think I have found a treasure that I can use to understand my own marriage better.
Here is a link to the Everts' Pure Love Club website:http://www.chastity.com/seminars/index.php?id=30
I have had a very checkered past, when it comes to relationships. As a teen of the 80's "if it feels good, do it" generation, I had so little real background to bring to a relationship, that I allowed society to dictate my behavior. My parents were "good kids" from the 50's. They had no idea of the waters in which their children had to swim.
It isn't about courtship vs. dating. It's really about who we are and how we see ourselves and others. If we teach our children to see other people as God's first, then they may be able to respect His plan for them under any circumstance.
I am not very articulate and I can't possibly begin to share the depth and beauty of this topic.
It really is all about God's whole plan for all of us from the very beginning.
Posted by: Jennifer | March 23, 2009 3:32 PM
I just wanted to add that I think there is something all parents should do, regardless of where they fall on the dating/courtship spectrum.
They should teach their children to look at dating or courtship not just as a means of personal fulfilment, but also within the larger paradigm of how being with another person will impact their walk with God.
I think this aspect is often (though certainly not always) lost with young people who are often thinking only in terms of personal, short term satisfaction. I know I was guilty of this, as were a number of my friends.
I think we can really help our children by telling them to think and pray about the direction of their lives and how a mate fits into these plans. I think viewing relationships within a larger context would help young people avoid a lot of the pain that comes with the modern teen dating scenerio.
Posted by: Lauren | March 23, 2009 4:24 PM
Reading through these posts, I see that courtship can be a dangerous thing, or a good thing depending on how it is handled. Seems like the goal for Christians, is to allow their children to find their own mate while still offering advice about the situation. The other goals would be that the relationship has enough time to grow, and that the couple has time to get to know each other enough to know if the other person is " the one"... and do all of this with purity of both mind and body. Once they have decided that this person is " the one", they definitely need to get married fairly quickly, or the relationship can start to feel like " marriage" without the legal papers, and that is when it starts to get dangerous. So mom and dad don't have control, but give guidance....
Now, getting navigating point A to point B is the big question.
Posted by: Lisa | March 23, 2009 4:42 PM
You are so right, Barbara. There is no one size fits all when it comes to advice about these things. I only hope that my kids find the right person. That can make all of the difference in the world.
Statistically, those who marry in their teens, do NOT have the best numbers in staying marriage. The younger couples do not seem to last. Maybe because the older folks do not actually marry, but just shack up in circumstances where younger ones do end up marrying.
At our 25 year college reunion, we were heartened to see a goodly number of college romances had resulted in marriages that are still going. There were some casualties, but far better than the national averages. Considering this is an independent private school, the numbers were astonishing to me. I do know that most of us who married our college classmates, were great friends before becoming sweethearts and I wonder if that did not play a role in the permanence of the relationships.
Posted by: Cath Young | March 23, 2009 4:55 PM
Today is my 18th anniversary. My husband and I were 19 and 20 when we married (a year after we met,) and my dad had said "no". The turmoil in my family over my choice to get married anyway was horrible. I still wonder what my responsibility was regarding honoring my parents at that time.
My kids are 12, 10 and 4. Being a homeschooling family has saved us a from having to address a great deal of boy/girl questions up to this point. My hope for my children is that our relationships will be ones of great trust throughout. I have read a couple of good books on courtship but I do not have any intention of setting up any sort of program or script for this. We are (and will be,) careful to teach our kids that marriage is not to be taken lightly, that God intends it to be forever and that it takes hard work,that they need to guard their hearts as they grow up, that they need to approach their relationships with everyone with wise caution.
I pray that my marriage and parenting is such that my kids will learn more of what TO do from us than what NOT to do.
Posted by: Heidi | March 23, 2009 6:04 PM
I was raised in a solid Christian home with a basic - "you can date at 16" and "don't have sex" philosophy. I was involved in a long term (3 year) high school relationship that I deeply regret for a multitude of reasons. As my relationship with God grew in my later teen years, I had a strong desire to seek His will regarding relationships & dating. As a college freshman I made a commitment to no longer date (I did not read any books or know anyone else doing this - I simply heard the spirit of God speak to my heart). A scripture that inspired me was in 1 Corinthians 7:34-35 - which basically says that an unmarried woman can be concerned with the things of the Lord and have undistracted devotion to God. I saw this time as a "season of singleness" where I could fully devote my mind, soul, heart and body to serving the Lord and not be "distracted" by dating, emotional entanglements or marriage. It was truly an amazing time in my life as I grew strong in the Lord and served Him.
I learned to allow the Lord to meet my emotional needs and to trust Him completely. This built a great foundation for my future marriage. I also prayed a lot during that time for my future spouse who was actually in my life at the time, although I had no idea. We have been married for 22 years and have 7 children.
We have shared our life story with our children since they were tiny and challenged them to live a life seeking Gods will in this all important area of relationships & marriage. We have encouraged them to commit to a "season of singleness" as they grow in the Lord and to pray for their future spouse. We do not ignore that their teenage years can be emotion filled and desirous of relationship with the opposite sex - yet we encourage them to take their emotions & desires to God and to wait for His perfect timing and right person. Our first 6 children are girls and the eldest are 19, 16, 15 & 13 right now. They have all embraced our philosophy (so far...we are right in the middle of this era)and are using this time in their lives very productively and without the distraction of dating and relationships.
My prayer is that the Lord will bring them each a man who loves the Lord with all his heart, who is committed to the marriage covenant, who loves and desires children and with whom they have developed a strong friendship.
With so many failed marriages out there, even among believers, dating/relationships/courtship is certainly something parents should put a lot of thought, time, effort and energy into.
I have blogged some about this subject if you want to read more- http://bethlambdin.wordpress.com/category/courtship/
Posted by: Beth Lambdin | March 24, 2009 2:14 AM
I married at 18 and we are about to celebrate our 24th anniversary. I think marriage is a challenge no matter what age you enter in! Commitment, not maturity, is what is needed for a lasting marriage.
Our oldest is 14 (of 6 girls and 1 boy) and I'm very interested to see what others have learned about courtship/dating.
Posted by: Smockity Frocks | March 24, 2009 9:22 AM
God gave man free will to make his own choices in life. As parents, our job is to provide fertile soil for children to grow up in: fear of God, teaching His values, guiding and helping children in making their own decisions. Just as you wouldn't have a 13 year old drive a car, you would recognize that they aren't capable of handling the emotional and physical aspects of dating. As a child grows older, you assess how they are making decisions. There is no "set" rule that will fit every child. However, if a child is living with their parents, the parents are responsible for a spiritual atmosphere in their home. Allowing children to make choices against your spiritual beliefs would be a bad message to them. Also, if a child is not ready to be married because of maturity or circumstances such as school, then putting them in an atmosphere where they are allowed to "pretend" they are ready for marriage is not a healthy situation. Emotions and sexuality will overwhelm their desire to wait. Therefore, a parent has to take very seriously the decision on dating. I am sure that a mature parent is not going to respond to "everyone else does it" in making their decision that is so important for their child. Just because a child "wants to" is also not a reason. If a parent allows dating before a child is ready for marriage, then the parent is definitely responsible for any bad outcomes that occur when the child makes a bad choice, along with the child being responsible for their error. Biblical standard provide us with guidelines to stay safe and protected from Satan's attacks. It's up to us to use those standards. If we discount them, then we take God's power away from helping us in these decisions.
Posted by: anniejumpers | March 24, 2009 9:25 AM
I found this encouraging to know that God has different plans for different people. I married at 20. Initially everyone seemed to think it was a bad idea but now 23 years later its proven to be a great idea. We were young and just sort of helped each other grow up.
I have never even heard of this "courtship" model that has been mentioned so often. I guess maybe my 20 year old is living this philosophy as she has not dated anyone. She says she is waiting until she finds just the right person. I suspect when God brings that person to her she will move quickly.
On the other hand my 17 year old has been in a relationship for over a year. At first I was discouraging the relationship as they seemed so young but now I am more accepting of the relationship as I see the love and maturity. I wonder if it may be the one and only relationship for them until marriage.
I'm trying to be more open to sense the uniqueness of each child and God's perfect plan for them.
Posted by: Joy | March 24, 2009 10:54 AM
Wow. This topic is near and dear to me as we have six children ages 21, 18, 16, 14, 8 and 5! My 21 yo is engaged to be married to a wonderful air force gentleman she met... I can hardly believe I am typing this.. online! As her parents,it was definitely not our preference for how she would meet her mate, but God meets us all where we are, and this generation is online :). We have been very guarded and watchful over the two of them, but as time goes on (they have been together over a year), I see God's hand in their meeting.
My 18yo has been exclusively dating the same young man for three years. We have many rules for dating in our home. We prefer them not to date before the age of 16; never, under any circumstances, are boyfriends allowed in bedrooms, or to be alone in the house without a parent home. We prefer group dates in the beginning until we feel comfortable with the situation.
Truthfully , the only reason we allowed our 18yo (who was still 15 at the time)to pursue her relationship was because we knew his family. They are both extremely respectful of our house rules, and as odd as this sounds, most people who know the two of them, can't imagine them NOT ending up married! God is good!
My best advice for parenting teens through the dating years is to pray, pray and pray some more! Pray from the time they are babies, that if their vocation is to married life that God keeps their future spouse pure and close to Him in the meantime. Also, communication. Start having very open communication with your children from the youngest age. Always answer their questions honestly and this will establish you as their "go-to" person for all sorts of information! I know this can be uncomfortable at times, but it is imperative to stretch ourselves out of our own comfort zones and address the complicated issues of this day! Believe me, they will have no problem getting information when they want it.. make sure they seek it from you!
My husband and I married two weeks after I graduated college when I had just turned 22, and I believe in marrying young, if you have found the right mate! Waiting too long only increases the occasion for sin, in my book. I take such great pleasure in reminiscing about the years of struggling at the beginning because I can see how far we have come. This is not to say there aren't still struggles; but we have proven that we can weather them. This is my prayer for each of our children... that they marry when they find the right person and not necessarily when "the world" says they should... and they spend a lifetime together helping each other grow in virtue so they can spend eternity in heaven.
Posted by: ChrisV | March 24, 2009 11:26 AM
Great article!
We, too, hope for courtship for the three boys still at home. We look back at our personal experiences with dating and prior marriage, and don't want that for our boys. We both did things the wrong ways and paid the price. But, as you have pointed out, our plans for our sons may not match God's plans for them. I just pray that we equip them to be able to respond ably to His plans for them.
May God bless and keep you & yours!
Richard
Posted by: Richard | March 24, 2009 2:10 PM
I really am enjoying this discussion.
I remember at the end of the 90's when Josh Harris wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye and it sounded so simple to just raise your kids to wait until they were of marriageable age to even contemplate a relationship with someone of the opposite sex and that any such relationship needed to be begun with the intention of marriage. For two ex-counterculture hedonists like Tripp and me, this sounded like the perfect path.
But with 10 additional years of parenting under our belts, we found that parenthood isn't like physics. You can't predict all the events, reactions and variables that can occur.
I am glad a few people at least have had the experience we are going through right now in which a remarkable young man we've known for several years came and asked if he could have our permission to spend time with our almost 16-year-old daughter. Though this is very young in the Curtis household, this felt right and Tripp had a long and thorough discussion with the young man - the kind you would expect from a protective father.
What spending time together means right now is spending time in each other's homes with each other's families. Maddy and her beau sing together in a bluegrass band so they have rehearsals and performances with other band members. Sometimes they go out for a fruit smoothie after school.
They are holding off on any physical expression other than holding hands. Maddy's already been brought up like our other children with a standard of purity that isn't based on refraining from sex because it's dangerous, but waiting because sex is wonderful when it follows God's plan. One of the reasons we could give this relationship our blessing is because we know Maddy so well and have a very open relationship. She wants our input and respects our advice. I've told Maddy - and I think this is an important point to make with teens - that when the physical element is introduced into the relationship, everything changes and it's not as easy to ger to know each other well. Ironic, but without that pressure to get physical during the teen years, the relationship can be more creative and fun.
It helps that this young man is a Christian, on his way to being an Eagle Scout, focused and honorable and well-rounded. He comes from a family that gives him curfews and is just as concerned as we are that the relationship not become an obbsession or distraction.
And that has been the real joy to us. For two months these two have gotten to know each other and each others' families better but we haven't seen any signs that their priorities have become mixed up. They don't spend every weekend together because they have interests that keep them busy. School, extra-curricular activities, other friendships - all appear to be in balance.
So far, it looks very healthy. But that's because these two individuals appear to have more maturity than most teens - plus strong values and supportive involved families.
Posted by: barbara | March 24, 2009 3:30 PM
I wanted to add to my previous comment, the importance of the father's God-given role as protector of the family.
After reading your response, Barbara, I was reminded of a few conversations my huband has had with our future son-in-law, and also our 18yo's boyfriend. The basic gist was this: "I am the protector of my family. In my absence, when my daughter is out with you, I expect you to be filling this role. This means, you are to keep your wits about you so if you are needed to protect her in a real, physical sense, you are able to; it means being in tune to your own conversations about her and to what others say about her and defending her honor to others if need be..."
There was more, and I really wish I had written or recorded what he had said, because in one case, I felt his words were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit . One of these conversations took place with both myself and my daughter present, and the greatest reward of this was one which we hadn't even thought of. For maybe the first time in her life, our daughter got to hear her dad state publicly her invaluable worth to him. This moment was truly inspiring for all of us, and again goes back to what I had said earlier about the great importance of communication!
Posted by: ChrisV | March 24, 2009 4:36 PM
I will echo what Smockity Frocks said, that it's all about commitment. When a husband and wife are committed to marriage "till death do us part," everything else can be overcome.
Posted by: evergreen | March 24, 2009 5:14 PM
I met my husband when I was 16 and he was 17. We started dating (mostly exclusively, except for some double dates with friends). I won't say that our dating relationship was perfect in every way, but we decided pretty early on that marriage was our goal (We got married at 20 and 21). We've been married 7 years now, and have two children.
When I was tempted to make mistakes (or actually did make them) in my dating experience, the thing that got me back on track was almost always the thought of how much my parents respected and trusted me. My parents treated me as much like an adult as they could, and this had a very positive influence on me.
I won't have to deal with these issues for my own children for many years, but I think you're right, Barbara, that a one-size-fits-all approach won't work for long. Dating involves human relationships, which can't be easily categorized or controlled.
Posted by: Elizabeth B. | March 24, 2009 8:43 PM
Thanks! This was such a good thought provoking post! My little ones are still tiny, but I think about this, along with my love. I love the courtship idea, but you're right, I can't know yet what will happen when my sons are teenagers. I bring this before God often because I believe chastity is usually much much harder for boys, at least in my own experience. My parents instilled in me the desire to wait for marriage, and I fought hard to stick with that knowing that all it would take was a second of weakness to lose that resolve. Can you imagine what went through my husband's mind when I told the teen him that I wanted my next boyfriend to be my husband? He said that was great. So as we discussed your post, he said that we did pursue our relationship as courtship even though his parents didn't instill that in him. His parents did send him to college with the knowledge that if he got married before graduation, they would not pay for his education. We both know we should have gotten married in college, but we waited until right after. It became very difficult toward the end (physically). A wise person told me that it is not normal for people to date for years without becoming physically involved. They either break up or get married. Thankfully we got married. ;) What I'm hoping to teach our children is how beautiful it is to be in love, and that they will want to save their whole heart for the one they will be with forever. When they feel that way about someone, we will rejoice with them and hopefully they will trust our wisdom. As a 16 year old girl, I feel for Maddy and for her boyfriend. I remember the 16 year old hormones and thank God for my parents' protection during my life. I wasn't ready to think about marriage then, but if Maddy is ready to consider this young man for forever, I agree with the marry young and marry poor idea! :) Thank you for writing about this. My boys are preschoolers. I'm going to start praying for my future daughters-in-law now.
Posted by: Angela | March 24, 2009 9:26 PM
I just have to ask the question. Has your opinion changed because you have had children who have rejected your standards, so you compromised?
[anniejumpers, I can see why to a cynical person it might look that way. To a parent who's raised a bunch of children into adulthood, it's just not that black and white.
I don't believe we compromised so much as that we allowed God to teach us to be more respectful of his individual children and less rigid about "our" plans. If you think about it, there's a lot of pride and arrogance in the early parenting years as you believe you can do things better than others.
That is spiritual pride because it doesn't recognize that God gave each of us free will. Even the perfect Father could not be successful in controlling his children. Even Adam and Eve, who enjoyed perfect communion with him, rejected his commands. How can we assume that we can do a better job than him?
All we can do is give a firm foundation and then help our kids learn to implement what we have taught them.
As maturing parents, we came to realize that trying to control your children's choices and behavior during the teen years in the same manner you do during the early years is not good for them. They need to have the freedom to make decisions about some things. And they need to be talked through some situations.
Adhering to a strict no-relationships-until-18/19/20/whatever will set up some kids for rebellion - plain and simple. I know you have leaders telling you that this is the way it should be, but I have never, ever met a family - and I know some of the highest profile ones around - who did not have to "compromise" - to use the word you have chosen, a word which has negative connotations and judgment attached.
I see that these parents have had to be humbled and grow and change. However, they are not as open about the reality of their lives as I choose to be.
God cares too much about us to allow us to persist in our pride. There are several places in the Bible which tell us that this is the sin that God especially hates. Parental pride is something to beware of. My advice would be to listen carefully to those who've had more experience before judging.
anniejumpers, you have asked a couple argumentative questions. Would you care to share more about yourself and your experience so that we are on a more equal footing as far as this discussion goes? If you have grown children and have been able to implement your plan perfectly, my hat will be off to you :)]
Posted by: anniejumpers | March 25, 2009 2:48 PM
As my first comment indicated, I do believe and understand that children need to make their own decisions. As long as they are living in our household, we need to love and guide them in their decision making.
In your reference to God and Adam and Eve, God did give them free will and a choice. However, God never compromised his principles. His laws were still the same. Their punishment was the result of the sin they committed. God didn't say: Okay, you're going to do what you want to do. I change my mind.
I am not trying to be accusatory to you, Barbara. I realize what a difficult time we as parents have and you definitely have sacrificed to raise such a large family so very well. I might be new to your blog, but it has been very interesting to me and I see the struggles and the successes you have accomplished in the journey of life.
Any comments I make are strictly on a philosophical level because I see your intuitiveness and they are just to raise a philosophical question as to how the Bible applies to "real life." It is rare to find a person with so much depth in their thinking as you. So many people just let life come at them and respond as a knee jerk reaction to what comes up.
Hopefully our exchange can be mutually enjoyable and helpful.
Posted by: anniejumpers | March 25, 2009 5:44 PM
Loved the article on those married 50+ years, Mrs. Barbara! I can see a lot of similarities to my own marriage. We were late to marry, being 26 and 31, but it was still like starting out from scratch for us. Both of us had always lived at home except my dh's years at Bible school. I always tell my dh that it was his fault we had to wait so long. I've been a Christian 12 years longer than he has and had been chomping at the bits to have my own family since before I was 20 (my mom's age when marrying).
The courtship issue is interesting, I remember sitting in a workshop on courtship with my dad when I was 19 or so, it sounded wonderful since my relationship with my dad couldn't be better, but I could see even then how tyrannical it could be without godly, loving parents. Then we started waiting for the right man to come along... he never did. Meanwhile my dh was waiting for me to show up and I had never heard of the circles he was moving in. Oops, didn't mean for this to become a testimonial! Anyway, when my parents did find him online and after passing my rigorous screening (full time minister who wanted all the children God chose to send him) we started just talking. Being a thousand miles apart with unlimited cellphone time became a great way to really be friends and know each other after just a few months.
Another thing I loved from the article was the advice to travel in a van together. The first year of our marriage we were on deputation traveling the country together and doing everything but preaching as full partners. It was a good foundation for the turbulent times ahead. We are to this day a team facing the world together.
Best of blessings to Maddie and her friend, may they stand before the Lord with no regrets (or as few as humanly possible)!
Posted by: Cheri | March 26, 2009 1:58 PM
