October 12, 2011 1:54 PM
42,912 Christian denominations
Posted in Catholicism, Church Issues | Permalink
Comments
Yep.
Posted by: Julana | October 12, 2011 8:12 PM
Exactly. I often wonder if they ever think of it in these terms. Probably not. Seems to me you'd have to question your church if you were in one of these. Are they unaware of church history? Don't care? Think it totally doesn't matter?
Posted by: Michelle | October 12, 2011 8:28 PM
Exactly. I often wonder if they ever think of it in these terms. Probably not. Seems to me you'd have to question your church if you were in one of these. Are they unaware of church history? Don't care? Think it totally doesn't matter?
Posted by: Michelle | October 12, 2011 10:00 PM
Michelle, most of the time people are too busy to think of church history. It's also a scary thing for them. I'm a convert and it took me a very long time to come to the conclusion that I wanted to become Catholic.
Also, I remember the first time that I ever heard of the extra books in the Bible removed by the Protestants. Those were three days of darkness for me. I was in shock, confused and very depressed. Can you imagine the emotional upheaval it can cause people to find out that the place they were going to was not the place that Christ founded? That's why we have to walk carefully so as not to "bruise the tender reed."
Posted by: Sue from Buffalo | October 13, 2011 7:35 AM
Church founded by Jesus Christ vs. church founded by man/woman acting in rebellion against or attempting to "improve upon" Church founded by Jesus Christ. No contest!
Posted by: Kerri | October 13, 2011 9:22 AM
The church that Jesus Christ founded is not a building or a religious organization. It is a body of believers who have repented and put their trust in Christ for their salvation. But certainly one can follow His Body of Believers through history, as His Word and His Gospel still live on as promised.
Posted by: Ruth | October 13, 2011 10:42 AM
Kerri,
The Church that Jesus founded is a light set on a hill (Don't know the chapter and verse). Paul told Timothy to get with the church once he got to some certain area (Again, it's my husband who's the chapter and verse guy, because he was a pastor. We're converts to the Catholic Church.). It's visible, definite, and with real leaders (All in place when the NT was written, so it's easily seen in the Scriptures.). It's the pillar and foundation of truth (That's somewhere in one of the Timothy books.) . . . It is The Church.
Posted by: Allison | October 13, 2011 1:29 PM
Is it really division?
Were the Corinthians vs. the Phillipians vs. the Ephesians?
There were differences in doctrine between these and other churches, documented in the New Testament, yet, the church is presented as one (flawed) body.
As for (Roman) Catholicsm, you have your Eastern Rite and your Latin Rite and your Oriental rite, you have Franciscans vs. Dominicans vs. Marians, etc., if you want to present it that way. Not to mention the extremely wide views promoted by prominent "Catholics," thinking of course of the famous American "Catholics" like Pelosi and Kennedy and etc., obviously, there is a tremendous amount of division there. Recently, the Father Corapi scandal. I also read recently of renegade bands of nuns, not submitting to various edicts, etc.
There are those who are faithful to pre-Vatican 2, post-Vatican 2, etc.; I just don't think you can present the Roman Catholic church as unified any more than the Protestants.
Posted by: Marie | October 13, 2011 2:49 PM
Barbara, I would be so interested to read about your switch to Catholicism. I was raised Catholic but never knew Jesus as my Savior until College. Now my husband and I attend a "non denominational" church... silly term I think. Anyway, always questioning and searching and I have been an on and off reader for a few years and haven't yet found WHY you choose to become Catholic. Really like the cartoon btw.
Posted by: Laura Lee | October 13, 2011 3:01 PM
Like G. K Chesterton, I would no more have considered becoming a Catholic than becoming a cannibal.
Briefly stated: I was baptized Catholic but raised with no religion. Attended Catholic high school to get a superior education (to break free from an undesirable background). Lived a wild and crazy life until around age 32 I got sober and became a New Age seeker. Became a born-again Christian on March 21, 1987 - yes, one transcendent moment when everything about me changed. But four years ago, God called me back to the Catholic Church, a process I went through while blogging. You can read my thoughts - and those of my readers by scrolling to the bottom and reading forward http://mommylife.net/archives/evangelical_to/
Posted by: Barbara | October 13, 2011 5:14 PM
Marie, there are those who follow the Roman Catholic Church and those who just give lip service. Just like Jesus had Judas, we have famous people who claim to follow the Catholic Church (and therefore Christ) but in reality, they don't. Breaks my heart.
The Franciscans, Dominicans, etc are just branches of the same church. We're all still unified. Anyone who is in union with Roman is part of the Church. Vast difference than Protestantism. No disrespect, intended.
Posted by: Sue from Buffalo | October 13, 2011 5:43 PM
As a Lutheran, I suppose I could claim that I belong to the one real denomination since Luther lead a Reformation of the Catholic Church thereby restoring it to its scriptural roots. I believe, because the Bible teaches, that the catholic church (little "c") is made up of believers from all over the world. Their common connection being faith in Jesus Christ. One day we will all worship together in Spirit and in Truth and feast together at the Lord's table.
Posted by: Jennifer | October 13, 2011 7:08 PM
Actually, there was no scripture when the church was instituted by Jesus.
And Luther himself would probably be shocked to see where his efforts at reformation led. Did you know he has a statue of Mother Mary in his tomb?
The church does err in practice on occasion, but corrects itself over time. The splintering never goes back, but only forward into more splinters.
Posted by: Barbara | October 13, 2011 7:42 PM
Well...yes and no, Barbara. I want to say that the Church began on Pentecost. I'm hesitating on that because I'm not 100% sure yet.
Let me go look up that part of it.
Now, here's something I found on EWTN:
"In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work. He appointed Peter to be the visible head of the Church. Jesus said to Peter, "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18) Jesus said "build," as in to create a structure. Jesus built His structure on specifically chosen human beings Peter and the apostles.
Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23)
Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, "Do this in memory of Me." (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to "Make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19), and to "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15) "
I didn't mean to give you a "scripture" lesson, so please forgive me but I did find that here:
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb1.htm
and I thought it pertained to the Church being founded by Christ in scriptures.
Does that sound right?
I'm going to go look up that other part now.
Posted by: Sue from Buffalo | October 13, 2011 9:32 PM
Ok. Here's what I found, Barbara. Again, on EWTN.
137. Who founded the Church?
Jesus Christ founded the Church.
(a) Christ completed the founding of His Church just before His Ascension, when He commissioned the apostles to make disciples of all nations. Earlier in His public ministry He had instituted the sacraments, chosen the twelve apostles, instructed them by word and example, and conferred on them the power of teaching, ruling, and sanctifying.
(b) The Gospels show that Christ founded the Church in the form of a visible, hierarchical society, that is, one made up of subjects and superiors who rightfully rule subjects. The Roman Pontiff and the bishops under him are the ruling hierarchy of the Church. The Church is also a monarchical society in which the Pope rules with full power, that is, with jurisdiction over the entire Church. Peter was the first head of the Church founded by Christ.
(c) After Pentecost Sunday the apostles began to carry out their mission, which through them and their successors continues and will continue until the end of time.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura1a.htm
So, maybe it wasn't written down specifically in scripture such as "I now declare..." by Christ but the Catholic Church recognizes the chapters and verses that set up the framework for the Church.
I hope I'm not clear as mud. (smile). I'm not very good at explaining lately. Does this help?
Posted by: Sue from Buffalo | October 13, 2011 9:39 PM
John Knox and John Calvin were contemporaries of Martin Luther. They presented the world with completely different ideas of what a church should look like. Calvinists argue that they are the true reformed church. Presbyterians could too. But all three churches are different, different authority, different scripture interpretation, different understanding of predestination.
Contrast those three men with St. Ignatius, who was also a contemporary of Luther. He founded the Jesuits to bring about reform within the Church.
Posted by: Suzi | October 13, 2011 11:10 PM
Sue,
There are those who follow the Bible only and those who just give lip service. Just as you mentioned in re: Roman Catholic doctrine.
This is my point. The Protestants (Bible believers) are only divided inasmuch as they stray from Scripture. The Roman Catholics are only divided inasmuch as they stray from Roman Catholic doctrines and directions.
Both groups have MAJOR strayers.
So I don't think it is accurate to paint Protestants as somehow more divided than Roman Catholics.
"The Franciscans, Dominicans, etc are just branches of the same church. We're all still unified." Similarly, I'll say that Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians are all branches of the one church, as well. We accept one another as fellow believers.
You didn't mention the other churches that claim papal succession such as the other rites and the Eastern Orthodox, but I think you understand my point.
Posted by: Marie | October 14, 2011 1:30 AM
Marie, I didn't mention the other churches because I'm not educated in that. I don't know the differences. That's why I mentioned about anyone who was in communion with Rome.
I accept completely Protestants as true believers. With all my heart. The Roman Catholics who give lip service have actually excommunicated themselves from the Church. Most do not realize that and that breaks my heart.
I'll agree that we're not unified in that people aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing but in that case, that is true for all non-Catholics, as well. So...if we keep following that train of thought, then the divide in Protestant Churches goes even deeper.
I'm not trying to start trouble. The structure of the Catholic Church remains the same and has not changed for 2000 years. Little things have changed, yes, but not the structure and the fundamental teachings (i.e. birth control, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc).
The truth is that every non-Catholic Church began after the Roman Catholic Church. And the divisions have continued. Even to today. Every time there is a disagreement with scripture interpretation, a new church is founded with new doctrines and directions. And some of those followers eventually stray so the divisions grow deeper. The Catholic Church, with all of its frailties and sinful members (remember, we're all recovering sinners) is still true to the original teachings. Us members just have to keep working on ourselves to live up to it. (I'm constantly messing up.)
I've got to run. I hope that I explained my position ok. (smile)
Sue
Posted by: Sue from Buffalo | October 14, 2011 8:51 AM
Hi Sue,
Yes, I do think I understand you and that you are not being harsh about it.
You and I are coming from two different viewpoints. I don't see the RC church as the continuing one. You do. It is certainly a matter of perspective.
From my perspective, it is the Bible believing (sola Scriptura) churches that are the continuing church; from your perspective, you look at papal succession and the government that flows from there, and you start with Peter as a first pope.
I am glad you believe Protestants are Christians; I believe the sincere ones are, also. As you and I both acknowledge there are phonies on both sides.
Ultimately I believe it comes down to who we put your trust in (whether you are Protestant or RC). Do we trust in our good works, another person or persons' good works, a system of behavior, blind chance? Or do we trust in Jesus Christ alone, (while not denying that He has set up standards of behavior and obligations and a system of leadership and a particular church?) It is the tendency of perhaps all of us to trust in "Jesus and. . .," and we must all, no matter or denomination, be on our guard against that.
Posted by: Marie | October 14, 2011 2:59 PM
Well, (pause) we're not exactly thinking of the RC church as having a govt but I guess I understand what you mean. (smile)
Protestant, Catholic and non-denomination Christian Churches all hold firmly to the Bible. And that is a beautiful thing. We should do that. Nothing in our Catholic faith contradicts what is in the Bible. What we believe is that Christ gave us the Church to interpret the Bible and that's where we differ. And that is where Barbara's initial post is coming from. The Church actually came before the canon of the Bible was put together. There was no New Testament before the Church existed (meaning it wasn't written down, collected and decided which books belonged and which did not). We believe that it is because the Bible is so intricate, such a beautiful love letter from God to man that God would not leave us without help in interpreting it. The Holy Spirit came to guide us through the Apostles and thus through the Pope and the Magisterium. So yes, you were right about us believing in papal succession with Peter as our first Pope.
This is what, I believe, Barbara was talking about (and, Barbara, correct me if I'm wrong). The Roman Catholic Church has stayed consistent in her teachings on faith and morals. The Church does not change. There are 42,912 denominations because people themselves wanted change and they all believed that the Holy Spirit was guiding them. The Holy Spirit cannot be divided on faith and morals; therefore, there is a problem. Who is right?
I was raised as a church going, devout, God-loving Protestant. Very active in my church. Took me (as I look back) 10 years to become convinced so I now I can sit here and say with conviction that I believe that Christ is physically in each Roman Catholic Church and that all of its teachings are profoundly true.
That is what I believe. Thanks for listening to me, Marie, and for being so kind. You really are my Christian sister.
Sue
Posted by: Sue from Buffalo | October 14, 2011 6:13 PM
